Lightning Bolt is far inferior to Fireball.

[BoogieMan]

Both spells are the same level, do the same damage, and have the same save so that's a tie. The only difference is element and area of impact. Fireball is a 20ft sphere of damage, Lightning Bolt is a 120ft line.

Going by that, it seems they both have their uses. Occasionally, the elemental type is useful, but when that really becomes an issue in most games, it's later on when you have more tools to deal with that mechanic anyway. However, there are a few things in this game that make Lighting Bolt decisively worse in almost all situations encountered in this game.


1. Level Design. Lightning Bolt shines in long narrow passages where you can blast a lot of enemies with one strike. Such as one may encounter in an actual P&P session in a dungeon, labyrinth, alley, and so forth. I haven't finished this game yet, but this is rare. Bottlenecks aren't common as most fights take place in larger rooms or outdoors.

2. Friendly Fire. Lightning Bolt is inherently more difficult to use in my experience because with Fireball, you just need to be careful where you put the focal point and make sure no one will be in the area of effect once it's it's expected to land. Lightning bolt not only requires you to avoid friendly fire, but usually also requires you to spend time repositioning your mage. This typically involves going out to one side which also makes the mage more exposed and harder to support and doesn't allow for a melee to block incoming enemies as easily.

3. The biggest issue the spell has is an undocumented inaccuracy penalty with Lightning Bolt that I do not see in the spell description, an inaccuracy which I have never seen in any of the many other similar games I've played. The game shows the red line where the spell is to effect, but it's not uncommon for it to completely leave this area and arc off the the side. I've even seen the spell miss by as much as about 12ft (4m) by the mid point of it's travel, which is just absurd. I've seen it completely veer around all the intended enemies and instead hit 2 or 3 of my own people. I don't know if this is a bug, but it's terrible and makes the spell garbage.


Is this inaccuracy intended? I've never known it to exist anywhere else and I don't see any references to it in spell descriptions, nor do any other line spells behave this way. It should be greatly reduced/fixed. For Fireball to suck this hard, it would have to be allowed to impact on obstructions (including party members) before reaching it's destination.

So there you go, Lightning Bolt sucks. Go Fireball. It is generally more effective, reliable, and much safer to use.

[InEffect]

And? Not all things are created equal.
You also forgot to mention that everything and their dog are resistant/Immune to lightning.
It's not lightning bolt that is underpowered. It's fireball that is OP. And it always was so. Fireball was made how it is to give wizards/sorcerers that WOW! effect once they get to level 3 spells.
TL;DR Fireball is above level3 power curve and very deliberately so.

[BoogieMan]

Originally posted by InEffect:

And? Not all things are created equal.
You also forgot to mention that everything and their dog are resistant/Immune to lightning.
It's not lightning bolt that is underpowered. It's fireball that is OP. And it always was so. Fireball was made how it is to give wizards/sorcerers that WOW! effect once they get to level 3 spells.
TL;DR Fireball is above level3 power curve and very deliberately so.

That may be so, but I think there is more to it than just Fireball being OP. Lightning Bolt isn't just not as good, but outright bad on it's own, even if Fireball didn't exist. The main issue is still the wild inaccuracy with lightning bolt. I don't see it documented anywhere.

[Grifta]

Correct. Lightning bolt has always had this problems, but you didn't discuss the point that lightning resistance is less prevalent than fire resistance.

I think that saying this is because of game design is naive. They are good in different situations, and, if you are trying to hit multiple enemies, one naturally comes up more than another purely based on the shape of the effect.
Lightning Bolt: It will always be harder to get people to stand in a line, but it allows you to hit 1 person is a group pretty easily.
Fireball: It will always be easier to get a group of people within a 40ft diameter, but you risk hitting allies.

[ShivaX]

It's always been the case in CRPGs based on D&D.
Hell, it's usually the case in PnP as well, though a lot of times DMs will allow you to aim up or down and avoid friendly fire or the like.

Now #3 I've never noticed, but I also rarely use it because fireball is easier to aim in these kinds of games.

[BoogieMan]

Originally posted by Grifta:

Correct. Lightning bolt has always had this problems, but you didn't discuss the point that lightning resistance is less prevalent than fire resistance.

I think that saying this is because of game design is naive. They are good in different situations, and, if you are trying to hit multiple enemies, one naturally comes up more than another purely based on the shape of the effect.
Lightning Bolt: It will always be harder to get people to stand in a line, but it allows you to hit 1 person is a group pretty easily.
Fireball: It will always be easier to get a group of people within a 40ft diameter, but you risk hitting allies.

1. I did call attention the the resistances. It's yet to be of any real concern and I'm more than halfway through the game and as I mentioned, unless it's early on when level 3 spells are your crutch, then you have other tools to offset issues with resistances. Enemies that low a level don't often have high resistances in general, let alone this game in particular, which is the point here.

2. I'm playing the same game I find Fireball easy to use any not hit my allies while still making good use of it. Far easier than lightning bolt particularly.

3. Naive? But.. I pointed out directly what about the game design, while I'm sure not intentional, has a notable negative impact on the usability of the spell..

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by ShivaX:

It's always been the case in CRPGs based on D&D.

Yeah, we used a house rule that Lightning Bolt inflicts 1d8 points of electricity damage per caster level (up to 10d8 at caster level 10).

[Carog the Fat]

we used to allow a double width half range lightning bolt which made it much more competitive with fireball

[Arturick1]

Back in the day, Lightning Bolt would bounce off of walls, allowing you to hit enemies twice if positioned properly. Take that away, and take it out of turn-based, and it just doesn't work out.

[Grifta]

I reread, and I'm not seeing where you discussed resistances. And I would disagree that low level creatures don't have relevant resistances since spend a decent amount of time dealing with Will-o-Wisps right around level 5-6 which is when you get Lightning Bolt.

My point is that I don't believe it's game design, it's just inherent to any combat system, different shapes of effect will provide different opportunities. And, you can't deny that Lightning Bolt provides pinpoint accuracy that Fire Ball can't match without metamagic (Selective)

[RJM]

Lightning bolt has always been a niche spell compared to the wide versatility of fireball. In P:K it's not level design that is the problem, its the lack of turn based. Moving in turn, a wizard can get himself to a useful point and fire off his spell, confident that the fighter would be able to move in front and prevent enemies reaching him in time. With everyone moving simultaneously the fighter either moves too early and eats a lightning bolt or isn't blocking in time. This was much the same in previous RTwP games.

[xycotta]

They are for different uses. Fireball is for a mob, lightning bolt is for clearing a path thru an army. LB is usually better at multiple large targets. LB is easier more tactical, FB is more the hammer approach.

And what RJM said.

[BoogieMan]

Originally posted by Grifta:

I reread, and I'm not seeing where you discussed resistances. And I would disagree that low level creatures don't have relevant resistances since spend a decent amount of time dealing with Will-o-Wisps right around level 5-6 which is when you get Lightning Bolt.

My point is that I don't believe it's game design, it's just inherent to any combat system, different shapes of effect will provide different opportunities. And, you can't deny that Lightning Bolt provides pinpoint accuracy that Fire Ball can't match without metamagic (Selective)

I said in my first post, and much the same in my 3rd "Occasionally, the elemental type is useful, but when that really becomes an issue in most games, it's later on when you have more tools to deal with that mechanic anyway."

As for Will o Wisps, that's my point, and Lightning Bolt is useless on them and they are the most common elemental resistant enemy I recall encountering, making fireball better by default.

Even completely disregarding resistances, it's still inferior in use. The fact that in some rare situations is may be better isn't much of a win for it.

Originally posted by Arturick1:

Back in the day, Lightning Bolt would bounce off of walls, allowing you to hit enemies twice if positioned properly. Take that away, and take it out of turn-based, and it just doesn't work out.

Ah yes, I remember that in Baldur's Gate. Could be good. Could be bad. Was good for quick invisibility snipes when you're party was safely away.

Originally posted by RJM:

Lightning bolt has always been a niche spell compared to the wide versatility of fireball. In P:K it's not level design that is the problem, its the lack of turn based. Moving in turn, a wizard can get himself to a useful point and fire off his spell, confident that the fighter would be able to move in front and prevent enemies reaching him in time. With everyone moving simultaneously the fighter either moves too early and eats a lightning bolt or isn't blocking in time. This was much the same in previous RTwP games.

It's both, really. Both the real time conversion AND the level design. Very rarely has there been long narrowish corridors where it really shines in this game.

[Uzkin]

Originally posted by BoogieMan:

3. The biggest issue the spell has is an undocumented inaccuracy penalty with Lightning Bolt that I do not see in the spell description, an inaccuracy which I have never seen in any of the many other similar games I've played. The game shows the red line where the spell is to effect, but it's not uncommon for it to completely leave this area and arc off the the side. I've even seen the spell miss by as much as about 12ft (4m) by the mid point of it's travel, which is just absurd. I've seen it completely veer around all the intended enemies and instead hit 2 or 3 of my own people. I don't know if this is a bug, but it's terrible and makes the spell garbage.

Yes, that is a very annoying bug. The line-attack variants of Dragon's Breath have the same issue. I hope they fix it soon (unless it was already fixed in the latest patch, haven't used line-attack spells for a while).

[Rasqual]

lol , played ADD from 1986 and fireball is always the main stuff of wizards , lighting bolt can be usefull and in crpg ( and rpg) the possibility of "ricochet" is mostly situational but usefull .

[Graygan]

Lightning bolt works far better in PnP gaming, especially with the table maps and figures. It works even better underground where most games house-rule that the lightning bolt will bounce off dungeon walls.

Underground, you can get your enemies lined up and let loose.

That said... Fireball and Lightning Bolt are generally some of the least used spells ever. Unless you're building a blaster mage/sorc, you're going to want a lot of other spells first.

Haste, for instance, will do far more damage over-all than a single fireball. Just add up every single melee character who would have missed if not for haste. Each one of those hits is damage due to the spell. Add up the potential damage on each and every miss the enemy made that was a result of your party having +1 AC from Haste. That should count too. Add up each and every point of damage from the extra attack that Haste allows. That's all counted.

I prefer my mages to turn my physical damage(melee and ranged) into Gods. Then, during the actual combat, I prefer my mages to control the battlefield and control the enemy. Direct Damage spells are almost never used unless it's a long fight and you've run out of other spells.

Imagine a pet, for instance, with extended Mage Armor, Blur, Bull's Str., Cat's Grace, Heroism, Stoneskin, Prot/Resist energy, Prot/arrows, and Animal Growth on it. That's just stuff a Mage can do. Then while that monster that you used think was a cute and cuddly pet attacks the enemy, you can paralyze, trip, entangle, freeze, nauseate, etc. the enemy, thus making it easy for your mosnter to destroy the enemy.