Daggers and the arts of throwing them

[Schanez]

So... I am trying to recreate an Arcane Trickster I have been playing in a campaign with friends. I started with a level 1 Rogue with the Point Blank Shot feat to use with throwing daggers. The fact I was forced into a crossbow and short sword did not bother me at the begining, as I started collecting daggers in the double digit numbers soon enough. But for the love of me, I cannot find the button to throw them. There is Charge, Defensive Fighting and all, but the option to throw the dagger is either missing or I am suffering from a severe case of spontanous blindness.

Can someone point me to the option to throw daggers?

[esotericist]

There isn't one. :(

[Schanez]

What is the point for Point Blank Shot then? Is it still just a chokepoint feat for further archery specialisation? If so... That sucks big time. I would even understand, if they added a separate Throwing Dagger weapon in case the code does not allow a weapon to be melee and ranged at the same time. A true shame... And a game restsrt...
;-;

[esotericist]

Originally posted by Schanez:

What is the point for Point Blank Shot then? Is it still just a chokepoint feat for further archery specialisation? If so... That sucks big time. I would even understand, if they added a separate Throwing Dagger weapon in case the code does not allow a weapon to be melee and ranged at the same time. A true shame... And a game restsrt...
;-;

Point Blank Shot is an excellent feat, applicable to both archers and mages. The +1 to-hit and +1 damage are quite meaningful.

Also, while this doesn't help you with wanting daggers, for an arcane trickster you honestly want to be using cantrips. Acid Splash, Jolt...

It's easy to get sneak attack damage with kingmaker's flanking rules, and cantrips roll against touch AC rather than regular AC, which means they hit far more often (letting you get that sneak attack damage more often).

[=[NK]= Col. Jack O'Neil]

It's a pre requisite for precise shot, to negate shooting into melee, which applies to ranged touched spells

[Schanez]

Wait, you cannot get sneak damage to spells without the higher level of Arcane Trickster, no? You cannot flank from range, so you would need to combo with a character who can force flat footed on enemies. I haven't gotten far into the game, but so far none of the classes I got as companions can do it properly. Maybe you could do a Color Spray with a follow up Ranged Touch Attack spam for some bonus sneak damage on stuff. Or abuse the Vanish and Ranged Touch Attack if you specialised in Illusion School.

I know Point Blank Shot is used for Spells and Bombs and such, just don't see it as necessity anymore as a level 1 skill for a Rogue I wanted to specialise in Daggers, which I will have to change to Rapier I guess. Unless you can cast spells with both hands occupied, have yet to check it.

EDIT:
I just noticed, that Arcane Trickster has full Spell Progression as well as Full Sneak Dice Progression. Which is somewhat mind blowing. The class used to be a tad weak in classic PF, at least till 12ish levels. Here it seems it would be quite viable from the very start at level 5.

[=[NK]= Col. Jack O'Neil]

Also as long as an enemy is flanked by 2 melee characters (don't need to be either side of them), you get sneak attack on all ranged attacks

[nym_moondown]

Originally posted by Schanez:

I just noticed, that Arcane Trickster has full Spell Progression as well as Full Sneak Dice Progression. Which is somewhat mind blowing. The class used to be a tad weak in classic PF, at least till 12ish levels. Here it seems it would be quite viable from the very start at level 5.

No, AT was weaker in 3.5 not in PF tabletop. They changed some ability, but not SA and Spell progression.

[esotericist]

Originally posted by Schanez:

Wait, you cannot get sneak damage to spells without the higher level of Arcane Trickster, no? You cannot flank from range, so you would need to combo with a character who can force flat footed on enemies.

As O'Neil notes, as long as an enemy has two of your characters threatening them, the target is considered 'flanked', and ranged combatants with sneak attack within 30 feet get to apply their sneak attack dice to attack rolls against the target.

Note: the ability to apply sneak attack to ranged touch attacks is actually from 3.5, not Pathfinder or Kingmaker CRPG. ranged touch attacks ('rays') are considered weapon attacks, and precision damage (including critical hits) is permitted under any of the circumstances a physical ranged attack would.

What Arcane Trickster grants is the ability to do this with spells that are not involving an attack roll. Like, say, fireball.

And what Kingmaker CRPG does different is how they consider 'flanking' to work, and the ability to benefit from a target being flanked while not being a flanker. These changes are concessions to the real time model, because positioning is hard, and they don't have a mechanism for attempting to hide in combat (because line of sight in the game is pretty hinky) outside of spells, and that wouldn't be fair to straight rogues.

[Schanez]

That is a lot of useful info. The fact they went the 5e route for Sneak Attack in melee is great. The fact ranged rogue can get sneak attack as long as he is within 30 feet is just busted. That makes Arcane Trickester a joke tbh... You aim into Touch AC over Regular AC and get to apply Sneak Dice to all of your attacks, because lets face it, you will have at least two melee fighters in the team.

Thanks for the clarification on throwing weapons as well as all the other additional info.

[esotericist]

Originally posted by Schanez:

That is a lot of useful info. The fact they went the 5e route for Sneak Attack in melee is great. The fact ranged rogue can get sneak attack as long as he is within 30 feet is just busted. That makes Arcane Trickester a joke tbh... You aim into Touch AC over Regular AC and get to apply Sneak Dice to all of your attacks, because lets face it, you will have at least two melee fighters in the team.

Thanks for the clarification on throwing weapons as well as all the other additional info.

I keep encouraging people to stop trying to force Octavia to use a bow, for those reasons. :D

And if you didn't notice, Accomplished Sneak Attacker is in kingmaker crpg. This lets you have +1 to your sneak attack dice (but no more than the one-per-two-levels progression). This means you can go into Arcane Trickster with only one level of a class that grants sneak attack (although I tend to prefer two levels of rogue, because evasion is important).

[=[NK]= Col. Jack O'Neil]

I actually equip octavia with an agile rapier, so when she gets surprised she can fight defensively with it.

They supposedly changed so sneak attack only applies on the first ray now (like multiple scorching rays), instead of with each ray.

Also you can spec into AT much quicker with octavia quicker of you take accomplished sneak attacker at the first level up and the right skill points

[esotericist]

Originally posted by =NK= Col. Jack O'Neil:

I actually equip octavia with an agile rapier, so when she gets surprised she can fight defensively with it.

They supposedly changed so sneak attack only applies on the first ray now (like multiple scorching rays), instead of with each ray.

Also you can spec into AT much quicker with octavia quicker of you take accomplished sneak attacker at the first level up and the right skill points

Yeah, the agile weapon bit is a really good call, because Octavia doesn't have enough HP for provoking AoOs.

And precision dice on only the first attack roll of the spell is from PnP, every ray getting sneak attack was always a rules bug.

[=[NK]= Col. Jack O'Neil]

Yeah I know I was just clarifying because of
"get to apply Sneak Dice to all of your attacks,"

[esotericist]

Originally posted by =NK= Col. Jack O'Neil:

Yeah I know I was just clarifying because of
"get to apply Sneak Dice to all of your attacks,"

Fair enough!

[Schanez]

If it's the Unchained version, then you also get a Rogue Talent, no? If not, Evasion is still king. And I don't know yet who Octavia is, that is why I am not going to pursue this topic further.

So it's either Rogue 2/Wizard 3 or Rogue 1/Wizard 3 if you skip on Evasion. Good to know that still holds true. Although if I weren't recreating an already established character, then...

Vivisectionist is still the kind Arcane Trickster. Nothing like saving up Spell Slots with Cognatogen/Mutagen for buffs. Or just stack Cat's Grace with Dex Mutagen.