Summoning Requires an Urgent Rework

[Dragofie]

Hello!

I've decided to build my Tristian as a summoner, got him some summoning feats and now I m level 15. Since I m focusing on this stuff only on Tristian, I've started to do some tests. As you may all know, even with inspect stats we can't really see the stats of our summons. Or lets say I couldn't find it.

So I decided to do my tests with a monster, that I summon for the first time to see the stats since you get to see stat of your monster on first summon; a Huge Fire Elemental. As level 15 feat I got myself Spell Specialization for Summon Huge Elemental, and summoned the Huge fire Elemental with Empower Metamagic Rod. Results? No change on stats at all. It is same as I summon it with T6 normal summoning. Did the same with Heighten Spell feat instead of Spell Spec. Same stats again.

Then I decided to try with T8 Summon Monster ability, since it has some rolls and random stuff that Empower or Spell Spec. may work. Results? A SINGLE Monavic Deva with the exact stats as normal summoning method. Also tried T6 summon spell with Heighten Spell Metamagic to T8 and Empower Spell Rod. Same stats, 6 direwolfs max(EDIT: 1d4+1 and +1 from summoning feat).

Long story short; metamagic or spell spec. doesn't work on summoning abilities, except for Extend, Reach, Quicken Metamagics (actually I didn't try if these 3 work or not since they do not effect the monster stat or amount).

As far as I know, most of the buffs don't work on summons either, I m not seeing panther head symbol on summons when I use Mass Cat's Grace like I do on characters. I just may be blind or stupid enough to not realize but that is what I found out as result. I know summoning can be OP on some situations but at least give a proper description in game or prevent Spell Spec.'ing on summoning spells.

Thanks!

[Mr.Drow]

Three feats affect the Summon Monster spell as well as feats, you can also acquire a ring to boost summons as well.

Empower - More creatures being summoned (If it has a dice roll attached to it)
Maximize - Full amount being summoned (If it has a dice roll attached to it)
Extend - Longer duration they are summoned, works quite well

Augment summon - Feat that increases str and con of summons, needed to make them a meat shield army
Superior Summon - Feat that allows on a dice roll to get another summon

Ring of Enhanced Summons- Increased summons attack roll and damage by 2

[wwolf69]

Summoning is fine, you just want it to become something Divinity-like.
It's not divinity, deal with it.

[nym_moondown]

No problem here, this part is working as intended :)

[Marcos_DS]

Originally posted by DrowChaos:

Three feats affect the Summon Monster spell as well as feats, you can also acquire a ring to boost summons as well.

Empower - More creatures being summoned (If it has a dice roll attached to it)
Maximize - Full amount being summoned (If it has a dice roll attached to it)
Extend - Longer duration they are summoned, works quite well

Augment summon - Feat that increases str and con of summons, needed to make them a meat shield army
Superior Summon - Feat that allows on a dice roll to get another summon

Ring of Enhanced Summons- Increased summons attack roll and damage by 2

Very good list. Also, summons are affected by buff spells. While you wouldn't want to cast single-target spells on them, using AOE buff spells / songs etc after summoning should make them even better.

[Mr.Drow]

From experience turning Harrim into a summon focused Cleric with buffs makes him very viable, since his base stats do not allow for selective channel and his spell conversion can be used to heal.

[Dragofie]

Originally posted by For_Science!:

Originally posted by Dragofie:

As level 15 feat I got myself Spell Specialization for Summon Huge Elemental, and summoned the Huge fire Elemental with Empower Metamagic Rod. Results? No change on stats at all. It is same as I summon it with T6 normal summoning. Did the same with Heighten Spell feat instead of Spell Spec. Same stats again.

Empower, Heighten, and Spell Specialization aren't general "make the spell better" switches; they do specific things, and there's no reason you would EXPECT them to help in this situation (except for a slight duration improvement from Heighten and Spell Spec.) What were you imagining they would do?

Many of your later arguments in the thread similarly ignore the fact that this game is based on Pathfinder rules, not on a ruleset invented by the devs. Owlcat can't/won't rewrite the way summoning spells work because they're "underpowered in the endgame," because it was never Owlcat's decision in the first place.

Well, there IS a reason to EXPECT them to help, since you CAN Metamagic with all types or Spell Spec. them. If there is no effect, they should totally prevent you to Metamagic with certain types on summon spells. Yes, that would make system somehow foolproof, but you know not everyone who plays the game is a Pathfinder tabletop nerd. I've learned the rules of pathfinder from zero in this game which was a painful period.

[nym_moondown]

Originally posted by DrowChaos:

From experience turning Harrim into a summon focused Cleric with buffs makes him very viable, since his base stats do not allow for selective channel and his spell conversion can be used to heal.

Just give him a good Cha Item (you get a very good helmet at the end of his questline) and you can select tat feat. Then the feat deactivates and reactivates by itself automatically when/if your charisma falls under the requirement or meets it again.