Do you guys think that rogue is too OP ?

[aclyte]

Just got the Nok-Nok in my party and omfg this damage - he puts his sneak attacks too fast, to accurate and deals too much damage with them.

I'ts like Amiri (barbarian), but 2x faster. Already thinking of removing them from party to get some challenge from enemies.

I think that sneak attack has too little requirements to be landed and/or add too much damage to already high rogue damage output.

[CHAO$$$]

no
game was solod on hardest difficulty already

caster class ofc, feel free to google it

casters are still and probably will forever be the most busted thing in DnD. Theres other good classes. Ranger with devourer+bow buffs is busted af. Everything is op. Some tanks are borderline invincible.

[Baahb3]

Have to disagree with Chaos. I think the implementation of sneak attacks qualifying if 2 people attack the same target makes that type of damage dealer very over powered. Couple that with the ability to add that damage to multiple attack spells like Scorching Ray.

Not saying I have a better idea of how they could have implemented it, but sneak attack damage is ridiculously easy to get in this game and thus way OP in my humble opinion.

[Nito]

Well sneak attacks are kind of broken because if 2 characters are attacking one it is already considered flanked and ready to take massive sneak attack


And those secondary attack like the five attacks per round of the hydras.....

So basically right now Rogues and Monks are broken.

Now imagine a Rogue/Monk the guy is screwed if flanked

Unless of course you meet a high level mage but most of their spells can be easily countered

[CHAO$$$]

Youre talking about if "sneak attack" is broken. OP asked if rogue is broken and its not. Every character in the game can and should use 2d6 sneak attack with 1 level+feat.

Rogue has to walk to the enemy (beaten by ekun with devourer +2d6 + hurricane bow + multishot attack feats + the other busted self buff, full hit progression btw)
Gets hit by cleave (try harder difficulties against the giant tomb with rogue, enjoy)
and doesnt even get the largest hits even tho he rolls against full armor (try the sneak attack mage with hellfire ray / scorching ray if you want to see some real damage)
provides 0 cc or other utility (try lategame without freedom of movement on high difficulties)
Some of the cloud spells win the game by themselves. Some buffs are basically required, haste, freedom antipoison to name a few.
No full hit progression. Doesnt matter if you got the best damage in the game if you can only hit your main attack.

Another example is Regongar who rolls 2d6 sneak + strength + 6d6 or whatever from the most basic level 1 spell, +1 per die from feats + 2d6 from magus selfbuff and he gets to cast mirror image and haste which effectively makes him into an invincible shredder. (ohh and did i mention he can choose to roll against touch?)
Granted he falls off later in the game but you get the point.

Rogues are good but calling them op is ridiculous, they have nothing else but decent melee damage going for them. Play on higher difficulty. Try lategame without CC or buffs. good luck!

[thelebk]

I don't think rogues are OP in 1.2.2. I do wish sneak attack required actual flanking (opposite sides attack the same opponent) like PnP. This would make mobility more useful and add an additional tactical element. If I recall in Pathfinder based off the 3.5 rules set that any creature immune to critical hits was also immune to sneak attack damage. That was all constructs and most undead for instance.

[Babbles]

The problem isn't with Rogues per se, the Pathfinder rule set is so over tuned to make many builds OP.

2nd Edition and 3.5 had some amazing combinations, yes (Dual Classing in 2nd Ed, for example) however just look at the tool tips for Hard and Unfair in PF:KM; "Builds must be nothing less than perfect" - so, by default, a perfect build already breaks core balance.

[Eonwe]

If we're talking melee dps, i'd take a two handed fighter over a rogue any day. Their dps is really scary (i get 250+ crits on a 15-20), tho they bring no utility out of combat and they're really squishy.

[Autocthon]

Originally posted by CHAO$$$:

Youre talking about if "sneak attack" is broken. OP asked if rogue is broken and its not. Every character in the game can and should use 2d6 sneak attack with 1 level+feat.

Rogue has to walk to the enemy (beaten by ekun with devourer +2d6 + hurricane bow + multishot attack feats + the other busted self buff, full hit progression btw)
Gets hit by cleave (try harder difficulties against the giant tomb with rogue, enjoy)
and doesnt even get the largest hits even tho he rolls against full armor (try the sneak attack mage with hellfire ray / scorching ray if you want to see some real damage)
provides 0 cc or other utility (try lategame without freedom of movement on high difficulties)
Some of the cloud spells win the game by themselves. Some buffs are basically required, haste, freedom antipoison to name a few.
No full hit progression. Doesnt matter if you got the best damage in the game if you can only hit your main attack.

Another example is Regongar who rolls 2d6 sneak + strength + 6d6 or whatever from the most basic level 1 spell, +1 per die from feats + 2d6 from magus selfbuff and he gets to cast mirror image and haste which effectively makes him into an invincible shredder. (ohh and did i mention he can choose to roll against touch?)
Granted he falls off later in the game but you get the point.

Rogues are good but calling them op is ridiculous, they have nothing else but decent melee damage going for them. Play on higher difficulty. Try lategame without CC or buffs. good luck!

If 2d6 SA is a "must" on every character then there's a problem with SA.

Of course if your rogue is getting hit by, well, anything then your rogue is built like trash. Dex class, evasion, uncanny dodge. One level monk dip ensures you're basically untouchable. The same buffs available to other characters are available to rogue too.

[JODEGAFUN]

Originally posted by CHAO$$$:

Youre talking about if "sneak attack" is broken. OP asked if rogue is broken and its not. Every character in the game can and should use 2d6 sneak attack with 1 level+feat.

Rogue has to walk to the enemy (beaten by ekun with devourer +2d6 + hurricane bow + multishot attack feats + the other busted self buff, full hit progression btw)
Gets hit by cleave (try harder difficulties against the giant tomb with rogue, enjoy)
and doesnt even get the largest hits even tho he rolls against full armor (try the sneak attack mage with hellfire ray / scorching ray if you want to see some real damage)
provides 0 cc or other utility (try lategame without freedom of movement on high difficulties)
Some of the cloud spells win the game by themselves. Some buffs are basically required, haste, freedom antipoison to name a few.
No full hit progression. Doesnt matter if you got the best damage in the game if you can only hit your main attack.

Another example is Regongar who rolls 2d6 sneak + strength + 6d6 or whatever from the most basic level 1 spell, +1 per die from feats + 2d6 from magus selfbuff and he gets to cast mirror image and haste which effectively makes him into an invincible shredder. (ohh and did i mention he can choose to roll against touch?)
Granted he falls off later in the game but you get the point.

Rogues are good but calling them op is ridiculous, they have nothing else but decent melee damage going for them. Play on higher difficulty. Try lategame without CC or buffs. good luck!

+1 one rougue ore vivisectionist lv is almost nessesary.

[Matt]

I just finished the Ferocious Devourer in Abandonned Keep (challenging diff., fight went easy and smooth).

My Rogue couldn't hit it (+20 Atk vs 42 AC) and, anyway, it was immunne to precision damage.

In the meantime, my Inquisitor had +30 Atk and 1d4+21(!) damage.

Both were buffed (equally) close to my max capability.

Guess who contributed the most to the fight ?

[Autocthon]

Originally posted by Matt:

I just finished the Ferocious Devourer in Abandonned Keep (challenging diff., fight went easy and smooth).

My Rogue couldn't hit it (+20 Atk vs 42 AC) and, anyway, it was immunne to precision damage.

In the meantime, my Inquisitor had +30 Atk and 1d4+21(!) damage.

Both were buffed (equally) close to my max capability.

Guess who contributed the most to the fight ?

That attack bonus is low. Inquisitor and Rogue are both 3/4 BAB classes. They should have similar attack bonuses. The Inquisitor has an edge in that particular fight since no precision damage, but the rogue shouldn't be 10 points behind in attack bonus, and shouldn't be unable to land hits.

Sounds to me you dun messed up on your rogue.

[Matt]

Originally posted by Autocthon:

Originally posted by Matt:

I just finished the Ferocious Devourer in Abandonned Keep (challenging diff., fight went easy and smooth).

My Rogue couldn't hit it (+20 Atk vs 42 AC) and, anyway, it was immunne to precision damage.

In the meantime, my Inquisitor had +30 Atk and 1d4+21(!) damage.

Both were buffed (equally) close to my max capability.

Guess who contributed the most to the fight ?

That attack bonus is low. Inquisitor and Rogue are both 3/4 BAB classes. They should have similar attack bonuses. The Inquisitor has an edge in that particular fight since no precision damage, but the rogue shouldn't be 10 points behind in attack bonus, and shouldn't be unable to land hits.

Sounds to me you dun messed up on your rogue.

I don't think I did.

Inquisitor gets +4 luck bonus on attack rolls (Divine Power), +3 from Judgement:Justice and +2 from Greater Bane Weapon. How do you get those bonuses for a rogue ?

Also, stating that +20 and +30 atk bonus is low at level 12 ? Because of those classes being 3/4 BAB (which implies a loss of 3 atk at level 12). Are you serious ?

[Autocthon]

Originally posted by Matt:

I don't think I did.

Inquisitor gets +4 luck bonus on attack rolls (Divine Power), +3 from Judgement:Justice and +2 from Greater Bane Weapon. How do you get those bonuses for a rogue ?

Also, stating that +20 and +30 atk bonus is low at level 12 ? Because of those classes being 3/4 BAB (which implies a loss of 3 atk at level 12). Are you serious ?

Starting 18 Dex, +4 Belt, +2 levels = +7 hit, +1 Weapon Focus, +2 Weapon Enhancement Bonus, + 8 levl = 18 before any other modifiers.

A bard is another easy +3, Heroism is an easy +2. I'm going to assume you couldn't get flanking (I don't remember the mechanics of every monster in the game, sue me). Reduce person is another functionally +2 hit, and it offsets your lost damage with more dex.

You should have more than +20 hit even without flanking.

[Matt]

Sure, but I said I didn't buff them to the max, didn't I ?

The figures I gave included flanking: +20 and +30 were the effective bonuses during the fight.

Also, althought I didn't reduce them, both were benefiting from heroism. So, what am I missing ? +3 from bard and +2 from size ? That cjhanges nothing to the fact that Inquisitor has 10 more atk than Rogue. Both (more or so) properly built.

[Autocthon]

Originally posted by Matt:

Sure, but I said I didn't buff them to the max, didn't I ?

The figures I gave included flanking: +20 and +30 were the effective bonuses during the fight.

Also, althought I didn't reduce them, both were benefiting from heroism. So, what am I missing ? +3 from bard and +2 from size ? That cjhanges nothing to the fact that Inquisitor has 10 more atk than Rogue. Both (more or so) properly built.

It does change the fact that your rogue was being hosed by a combination of enemy type and lack of proper buffing.

And hell even if you were only benefitting form Heroism + Flanking I'd expect you to have something like 24 attack bonus on the rogue in that fight.