Does Monk AC really beat plate armor?

[Paladin]

I've read that a monk's stat bonuses to AC without armor can beat out plate armor. So, I took a level of Scaled Fist Monk on my Paladin and too off his armor. His Charisma buffed by equipment gives him a +5 bonus, so he get's +5 to AC. But his Blessed Path full plate gives him +11. Is there a trick that I don't get to make the monk AC bonus outpace plate armor?

[Marquoz]

Monk robes or armor bracers + the dex AC bonus isn't capped by plate anymore. You need the right itemization and stats, but yes, monks without armor can easily beat the best plate in the game. I personally dislike this fact, but it's a fact nonetheless.

[Mork]

Yes but you need a few things like mage armor or armor bracer and a 'ok' dex.
However, a heavy armor user is generally more simple to build and can have higher ac at low level.

[kaymarciy]

Strongest plate armor gives +9 AC (aside from the enhancement bonus which can be aquired from the cleric spell). And there're some +8 Bracers of Armor in the game. At the same time you can get about 10 more AC from monk's Widsom/Charisma. And while you can get +1 more AC from armor specialisation feat, but monks can get +4 AC from the Crane Wing. That's aside from bonuses provided by the shield/Dex.

[Lathanx]

I am playing on challenging right now and am playing a cleric with the intention of having a pet at level 4 from animal domain.

I really hope by the time house at the edge of time comes i don't get absolutely destroyed because i decided not to do the absolutely stupid, 2 paladin, 2 monk, crane style unarmored bracers bs.

[Mork]

Originally posted by SamaelTheLightBringer:

I am playing on challenging right now and am playing a cleric with the intention of having a pet at level 4 from animal domain.

I really hope by the time house at the edge of time comes i don't get absolutely destroyed because i decided not to do the absolutely stupid, 2 paladin, 2 monk, crane style unarmored bracers bs.

There are others ways to counter Wild hunt touch sneak attack like high HP + heals, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge or even a good CC caster.

Blind fight however is very recommended on everyone at around level 17....

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by SamaelTheLightBringer:

I am playing on challenging right now and am playing a cleric with the intention of having a pet at level 4 from animal domain.

I really hope by the time house at the edge of time comes i don't get absolutely destroyed because i decided not to do the absolutely stupid, 2 paladin, 2 monk, crane style unarmored bracers bs.

It true that unless you are a Tower Shield Specialist, Monk AC generally has a large and cheap advantage, but you should be fine with buffs. Your Touch AC may be an issue, but again most enemies at HatEoT don't have high attack anyway and they don't spam touch attacks.

Also the Armor Enhancement spell from Clerics stacks with the armor's innate enhancement bonus, although I'm 95% sure that's a bug.

[jsaving]

Originally posted by Esrac:

I've read that a monk's stat bonuses to AC without armor can beat out plate armor.

Whether a monk's AC bonus beats wearing armor depends on the type of armor you have, the stats you chose at character creation, the quality of your AC bracers, how far you can buff DEX/WIS/CHA, and the type of shield you would use if going the armored route. So there is no simple answer to your question.

In general, using plate and shield in the early to mid game will give you a somewhat better AC, but this reverses in the mid to late game as you find better bracers and better DEX/WIS/CHA items. If building for AC at endgame you would rarely skip a monk level especially if you are worried about touch AC which will be significantly worse on an armored character. However a lot of people prefer ease-of-use to an optimized endgame build and it is much easier to get a decent AC by going armor-and-shield.

[Orange]

You literally have wait for the endgame to reach it but yeah... But even then its a small margin of 5 points of AC compared to a fighter that did not went stalwart, though they do have the touch ac advantage

[=[NK]= Col. Jack O'Neil]

Originally posted by kaymarciy:

Strongest plate armor gives +9 AC (aside from the enhancement bonus which can be aquired from the cleric spell). And there're some +8 Bracers of Armor in the game. At the same time you can get about 10 more AC from monk's Widsom/Charisma. And while you can get +1 more AC from armor specialisation feat, but monks can get +4 AC from the Crane Wing. That's aside from bonuses provided by the shield/Dex.

It's not really fair to compare end game braces of armour with starting full plate. That should be +14 including the +5

[Aria Athena]

Also not only is Crane Wing not 100% reliable when you actually need it, but it also requires a free hand. So if we are taking only AC into account, a Tower Shield +5 is 9 AC with +2 from feats, whereas the Shield personal buff, if you have it, is only 4 AC

[Darkfireslide]

A Fighter will also generally have more HP because he didn't have to build 4 stats that aren't Con, and sometimes HP is a lot more important than AC, even if high AC is stronger.
It's also easier to stack Strength bonuses for a Fighter to deal lots of high damage to stack with his more accurate attacks thanks to weapon focus and weapon training. Fighters are a lot more supportable than Monks imo, and have feats to spare on combat maneuvers and other abilities.
People on these forums have a fetish for monk dips, not realizing that in some ways they are handicapping their characters for a lot of the game. Monk is kind of a mediocre class overall, which is why people largely use it to stack AC with stuff like Crane Style.
But whether it's a Tower Shield Specialist, Aldori Defender, Sword n Board Fighter, or any number of different Monk builds, in truth they're roughly equals depending on the situation and require caster support to reach their full potential.
That said, no Monk build I know of can deal the absolutely nuclear amounts of damage a two-handed Fighter can. And that in itself makes the Fighter have a slight edge in my book.

[Halfgeek]

Originally posted by darkfireslide:

That said, no Monk build I know of can deal the absolutely nuclear amounts of damage a two-handed Fighter can. And that in itself makes the Fighter have a slight edge in my book.

Yup, a 2H Fighter with plate, and dodge -> crane style feats can tank quite well (even better with the spell Shield & caster support), while dealing insane dmg, with cleaving finishes on reach weapons to be a whirlwind of death.

[Uzkin]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

Also not only is Crane Wing not 100% reliable when you actually need it, but it also requires a free hand. So if we are taking only AC into account, a Tower Shield +5 is 9 AC with +2 from feats, whereas the Shield personal buff, if you have it, is only 4 AC

Crane Wing does not require a free hand in this game.

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by Uzkin:

Crane Wing does not require a free hand in this game.

I've never played the PnP, so it must be written in the in-game description. Is it a bug then?
Do Slashing/Fencing Grace also not require a free hand? This game causes trust issues.

Originally posted by darkfireslide:

That said, no Monk build I know of can deal the absolutely nuclear amounts of damage a two-handed Fighter can. And that in itself makes the Fighter have a slight edge in my book.

Or a dw fighter, they can keep up just fine. I'm also not a huge fan of a dip in Monk. I'll only dip if my character has high Wis/Cha and he is also supposed to tank, I'll probably never do it just to save 2 feats.

[Uzkin]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

I've never played the PnP, so it must be written in the in-game description. Is it a bug then? Do Slashing/Fencing Grace also not require a free hand? This game causes trust issues.

At this point, I think it is intentional. Being able to use Crane Style / Crane Wing brings the heavily-armored sword-and-shield tanks closer to the unarmored tanks. Since this "bug" makes the game more balanced they probably chose not to fix it.

As far as I know, Slashing/Fencing Grace do indeed require a free hand.