Thug Advice

[db_kck]

I created a half-orc Thug and so far all I have really done is put weapon focus in to rapier/finesse weapon route. Compared to the barbarian companion, I feel extremely underwhelming....and I get it, I'm comparing a rogue to a barbarian. I could just use a general direction/advice on where to take my Thug to make the game more enjoyable, I don't need to be overpowered(hence why I rolled a rogue) by any means but I want to at least contribute to the party during combat and not just outside of it.

Should I have just went barb/fighter instead? I wanted a more dexterous melee class without the aggression penalties of the barb.

[Mork]

Rogue start to get good around level 3+ when they can add their dexterity modifier to damage and get more sneak attack dice. Thug in particular are good at intimidation to make all enemies runaway when use in combat. It can be good and/or very annoying to make all enemies flee in all directions.

So they are normally build around the 'Frightening' mechanic by having a very high persuasion skill and following the intimidation feats line.

I'm not a expert in it but i thinks it's something like this
Weapon focus > Dazzling display > Shatter Defenses > Power attack > Cornugon Smash > Dreadful carnage
Intimidating prowess(if you have good strength)
Skill focus persuasion

I did love Thug at first but now i hate it because of Frightening. That is a pain to use and it break formation because you are running after monsters all over the map..... i prefer the base rogue because of it.

[Orange]

aggression penalties? You mean the exhaustion post rage...? That's easily dealt with, several spells remove exhaust condition

As for the dexterous melee class, anyone can be it that's why we have fencing/slashing grace feats which add dex to damage, Rogue is just the classe that comes with a similar feature in-built. You even have at least 2 prestige classes for dexterity melee if you're not satisfied with the base classe (Duelist and Swordlord).

Thing about the rogue is that:

- It needs to target an enemy thats engaging a party member
- Kinda needs Two-Weapon Fighting to make up for the lack of damage compared to other classes by triggering multiple sneak attacks, otherwise it only has a 3/4 BAB + 2 extra attacks (lvl 8/15) while a martial classe(fighter, barb, etc) is rocking a BAB = to its level and unlocking an extra attack at levels 6/11/16
- Thug however begs for a persuasion build around Dazzling display > Shatter Defenses > Power attack > Cornugon Smash > Dreadful Carnage to make use of its main feature, which moves it from a damage dealer to more of a debuffer with some damage

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by Orange:

As for the dexterous melee class, anyone can be it that's why we have fencing/slashing grace feats which add dex to damage, Rogue is just the classe that comes with a similar feature in-built.

The difference is that fencing/slashing grace requires you to have an empty hand, it doesn't work with dual wield. Also I don't think there is another way to add your dex bonus to an Elven Greatsword other than Finesse Training, unless of course the weapon is Agile, which is not rare in this game.

Also a Rogue more than makes it up for it's 3/4 BAB with his 10d6 sneak attack and the Debilitating Injuries, unless the target is immune to precision damage, but those are very few I believe.

[Orange]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

The difference is that fencing/slashing grace requires you to have an empty hand, it doesn't work with dual wield.

Dual wield is a bit of a corner case, given that it works as long as you have bonuses to add to your hits even with low strenght. (Bards, Inquisitors, Rogues, etc)

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

Also a Rogue more than makes it up for it's 3/4 BAB with his 10d6 sneak attack and the Debilitating Injuries, unless the target is immune to precision damage, but those are very few I believe.

Mathematicly not really, as flat damage bonuses will always be superior to a dice roll. Assuming both have the exact same fighting style, what would you rather have... The 1d6 + 45 damage per hit up to 7 attacks as a fighter or the rogue with its 1d6 + 15 + 10d6 damage per hit up to 6 attacks?

Neither is a bad build, but 1 is far more consistent than the other despite the latter having a bigger damage potencial

[Aria Athena]

In your examples the Fighter is better and I do prefer consistency. But to be fair I'm not sure how you get +45 with dw, I think it's around +30 with 7 attacks and +45 with Two-handed and 4 attacks. And to be even more fair, with Haste it will be 8 attacks against 7.

I think a dw dex Rogue in the end will get more damage on average than, lets say a dw str Fighter, but that's only if you don't count the crits and that's a big deal.

I have played a full playthrough with a dw str Fighter and only half with a Rogue, so I cannot say much about it's endgame damage. But in db_kck's case, his char is probably just too low a level for the class to shine. When he get's around lv 10 with 5d6 sneak + 1d6 from feat, his Thug will more than contribute to the party.

[Grifta]

@OP: Mork's got all the feats listed, although I would double check the order (pre-requisites)

I'm replaying with a Reach Rogue build similar to Arcane Agent's one, except that I went with Thug. (look at the first comment for the full build)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYqUQHBNU80

This is my feat list for my Human Thug. Most even levels are Rogue Talent (Combat Trick). I don't have the stats in front of me, but high STR.

1 Power & Cleave (H-Orc: just Power Attack)
2 Cleaving Finish (H-Orc: Cleave)
3 Great Cleave (H-Orc: Cleaving Finish)
4 Intimidating prowess
5 Exotic Weap Prof (Fauchard) <- I want to use a specific late-game weapon
6 Corigan smash
7 Weapon Focus (Fauchard) <- Focus whatever 2-handed reach weapon you want
8 Dazzling Display
9 Shattered Defences
10 Crippling Strike
11 Combat Reflexes
12 Double Debilitation
13
14 Dispelling Strike
15 Dreadful Carnage
16 Opportunist
17
18 Imp Crit (Fauchard) <- Imp. Crit whatever you focused
19
20

[SarmatII]

Rogues go nice dmg, but sneak attack crits don't multiply the 1D6. I found 2H fighter both more consistent in the dmg dealt and gets massive crits that 1 shots enemies, triggering cleaving finish multiple hits against nearby foes.

As for dazzling display and fear, I find it wasteful to spend a full round with that. Its better to have a support caster perform CC roles, and a dmg dealer focus on dishing out dmg.

For a better dmg dealer, go with Vivisectionist, with Feral Mutagen + Feral Wings feats, you can dual wield just as well but get an extra bite attack for SA, and the buffs for self and team (Infusion) is so so good.

Edit: In fact, you can also do a STR based 2h reach Vivi and it still is superior due to spells and the extra bite atk. Against enemies u can't SA, the STR + 2H combo still dish out respectable dmg.

[Orange]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

In your examples the Fighter is better and I do prefer consistency. But to be fair I'm not sure how you get +45 with dw, I think it's around +30 with 7 attacks and +45 with Two-handed and 4 attacks.

You might be right... let me check the math:

Lets say starting 19(17+2) str, 13 dex, 14 con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 14 Char. +5 to strenght from lvl ups bumping it to 24, dex requirements will come dex/str belt so thats another +6 (though you could bump dex to 16 without any dump stats if wished)

so for 1h weapon: 15 STR +12 Power attack + 5 weapon enchantment + 4 Weapon Specialization + 4 Fighter Weapon trainning = 40 damage bonus

2h weapon would be: 15*1.5 STR + 12*1.5 Power Attack + 5 weapon enchantment + 4 Weapon Specialization + 4 Fighter Weapon trainning = 53.5 damage bonus

You're right my initial 1h calculation was off by 5 points, but christ that 2h bonus...

[SarmatII]

2H fighter gets a feat to boost Power Atk bonus 2x for 2H so its +24 not +18. :) Also the other feats boost STR x2 dmg for 2H, not x1.5.

[Orange]

Originally posted by PhoBoChai:

2H fighter gets a feat to boost Power Atk bonus 2x for 2H so its +24 not +18. :) Also the other feats boost STR x2 dmg for 2H, not x1.5.

I was not taking into account archtypes just the fighting style of a regular fighter vs a regular rogue

But yes, it would be a ridiculous +67 damage bonus

[SarmatII]

Ppl diss on Fighters for dmg dealing but they are consistently strong, with keen and improve crits, they are top tier dmg that only cheese sneak builds can top, and thats because SA is way broken with multi-hit spells in this game that didn't exist on PnP.

With Piledriver in 2H fighter, they can also trip enemies as a free action while smashing them for huge dmg. So you got dmg + CC combo.

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by Orange:

so for 1h weapon: 15 STR +12 Power attack + 5 weapon enchantment + 4 Weapon Specialization + 4 Fighter Weapon trainning = 40 damage bonus

2h weapon would be: 15*1.5 STR + 18 Power Attack + 5 weapon + 4 Weapon Specialization + 4 Fighter Weapon trainning = 53.5 damage bonus

You're right my initial 1h calculation was off by 5 points, but christ that 2h bonus...

Oh, you were computing Power Attack. But there is also Piranha Strike, which when it comes to 1h it works the same way as Power Attack, but for finesse weapons. Also there is the issue with half bonus to off-hand, so I think it's better to compare dw with dw while ignoring Power Attack / Piranha Strike.

For my Fighter at least it was: 16 STR + 5 weap enc + 4 weap spec + 6 weap training (with Gloves of Dueling) = 31

[SarmatII]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

Originally posted by Orange:

so for 1h weapon: 15 STR +12 Power attack + 5 weapon enchantment + 4 Weapon Specialization + 4 Fighter Weapon trainning = 40 damage bonus

2h weapon would be: 15*1.5 STR + 18 Power Attack + 5 weapon + 4 Weapon Specialization + 4 Fighter Weapon trainning = 53.5 damage bonus

You're right my initial 1h calculation was off by 5 points, but christ that 2h bonus...

Oh, you were computing Power Attack. But there is also Piranha Strike, which when it comes to 1h it works the same way as Power Attack, but for finesse weapons. Also there is the issue with half bonus to off-hand, so I think it's better to compare dw with dw while ignoring Power Attack / Piranha Strike.

For my Fighter at least it was: 16 STR + 5 weap enc + 4 weap spec + 6 weap training (with Gloves of Dueling) = 31

Thug has lower BAB, using -BAB abilities for +Dmg is a no go in general, only viable against weak low AC stuff.

[Orange]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

Originally posted by Orange:

so for 1h weapon: 15 STR +12 Power attack + 5 weapon enchantment + 4 Weapon Specialization + 4 Fighter Weapon trainning = 40 damage bonus

2h weapon would be: 15*1.5 STR + 18 Power Attack + 5 weapon + 4 Weapon Specialization + 4 Fighter Weapon trainning = 53.5 damage bonus

You're right my initial 1h calculation was off by 5 points, but christ that 2h bonus...

Oh, you were computing Power Attack. But there is also Piranha Strike, which when it comes to 1h it works the same way as Power Attack, but for finesse weapons. Also there is the issue with half bonus to off-hand, so I think it's better to compare dw with dw while ignoring Power Attack / Piranha Strike.

Actually Piranha Strike on a rogue will only give +8 damage vs the fighters +12 since rogues never reach 16 BAB for a +10 and definitly not 20 BAB for the +12, but PhoBoChai said the biggest downside of all better:

Originally posted by PhoBoChai:

Thug has lower BAB, using -BAB abilities for +Dmg is a no go in general, only viable against weak low AC stuff.

When your damage is reliant on the on-hit effect instead of the damage bonus, that -4 from piranha strike + Two weapon fighting\Improved\Greater penalties are going to hurt your dps on a 3/4 BAB.
Doesnt make much sense for a rogue to use it, thats why i didnt account for it

Fighters on the other hand can afford the penalty with a full BAB and its still 4 attacks for +40 damage bonus and 3 more with a +34 damage bonus

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by PhoBoChai:

Ppl diss on Fighters for dmg dealing but they are consistently strong, with keen and improve crits, they are top tier dmg .

I agree, my fighter after lv 10 or so was killing everything pretty much on his own. But there is no point if everyone is talking about how strong a fighter can be, there would be no real comparison. It feels strange defending Rogues, because I always have to defend fighters.

Originally posted by PhoBoChai:

Thug has lower BAB, using -BAB abilities for +Dmg is a no go in general, only viable against weak low AC stuff.

It's not that lower. 5 less BAB and no weapon training, but has Debilitating Injuries which is a -8 AC when it counts. Also my dw fighter at the end could reach something like 65 attack and was attacking most things Flat-Footed with Greater Invis, which was major overkill to say the least. I don't think Piranha Strike will be much of a problem, at least around Pitax when all the insane items start appearing.


@Orange Yeah, I forgot that it will be only +8, but still cannot be ignored if PA is taken into account. I talked only about 1h because if you start comparing dw with two handed, it get's a bit messy. Also then you will have to deal with different available weapons.

At least when talking about potential and not mid game, I don't think the attack bonus is the main argument in favour of Fighters, because very few enemies have that high AC and even then Greater Invisibility is a thing. It's the critical hits, that PhoBoChai also mentioned, which make the difference. Including Weapon Master, that's in most cases a 40% bonus damage that a sneak build will mostly miss out on.

Edit: There is also the increased size spells that benefit the str Fighters more, which where included in the str bonus, but not in the size bonuses the weapons get. With a +2 size bonus with have 1d4 -> 1d8, 1d6 -> 2d6, 1d8 -> 3d6 and 1d10 -> 3d8