Magus VS Swordsaint

[Lord Of Dorkness]

Long time D&D player, first time Pathfinder player here. So I get a lot of the mechanics in this game, but I'm scratching my head just a tiny bit on the classes.

Had one of those magic using rogues that I got to level two before party wiping, and decided to write him off as a learning experience.

Think I've decided on trying a Magus or Swordsaint next, but what the exact difference between the two are is confusing me.

Is it just that the Swordsaint is locked into one weapon type for the whole game, or do they give up anything else to gain that power?

[Vergessenen]

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo-magus-archetypes/kensai/

They locked to one weapon, gain less magic slots per level and not proficient with armor. But they have other benefits which make them one of the most powerful melee classes

[Mork]

The only real similarity between the two is the spell list and Spellstrike. Everything else is pretty much different.

Magus is like a well balanced fighter/mage that can use armor while casting spells.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/

Sword saint or also call kensai is one of the most powerful and broken archetype of Pathfinder, specially when multi classing with one level of monk to combo with canny defense. They are like naked combatant with spells, mostly buffs and focusing on their combat prowess with powerful but limited ability.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/s/paizo-magus-archetypes/kensai/
Keep in mind that the kensai abilities names might be different but it's still the same thing.

[Doombringer]

If multi-classing 1 level of monk you want to be LG to be able to use the LG monk robes.

Sword Saint gives up med/heavy armor, gets a huge initiative/crit confirm/AC/max attacks of opportunity buff from Intelligence. (end up auto-winning init/crit confirm at high level)
Get more weapon abilities and less spell abilities.

Note that Sword Saint and Duelist canny defense stack with each other.
(Duelist Canny Defense requires 1hand/light piercing(or slashing with feat) weapon and empty offhand, so it is a bit more restrictive.)

[Aria Athena]

I would say you go Magus or Eldrich Scion if you play with a party and Sword Saint if you want to solo the game.

[burningmime]

You can play Sword Saint with a party...

Note that if you do a level of Monk, you might want to specialize your Sword Saint in Nunchaku, Sai, or Kama. If you're wielding one of these with no offhand weapon or shield, you get an extra attack. That's like 2x damage at the beginning of the game.

[haplok]

Or a falcata/estoc/bastard sword and actualy do solid damage per hit/crit...

[haplok]

Originally posted by Doombringer:

Sword Saint gives up med/heavy armor, gets a huge initiative/crit confirm/AC/max attacks of opportunity buff from Intelligence.

You've missed damage buff from Intelligence - only vs flat-footed targets but if you play smart, it will work vs most enemies :)

Note that Sword Saint and Duelist canny defense stack with each other.
(Duelist Canny Defense requires 1hand/light piercing(or slashing with feat) weapon and empty offhand, so it is a bit more restrictive.)

Yeah they stack. That being said, why would you delay and forfeit the awesome abilities of an already untouchable sword saint? Just to get more AC? You're invincible already without the Duelist (given 1 level monk dip, level 5+ and some buff stacking).

[burningmime]

Originally posted by haplok:

Or a falcata/estoc/bastard sword and actualy do solid damage per hit/crit...

Base weapon damage doesn't matter much it's all about the enchantments or buffs. 2 attacks at 1d4+10 are more than 1 attack at 1d12+10.

[haplok]

Those monk weapons don't play to a Sword Saint's strengths. Have sucky crit range AND base damage range. While a SS starting at level 4 can boost critical damage multiplier and maximize weapon damage.

This can lead to some broken damage numbers, when you double enlarge your heavy weapon and possibly also use the Vital Strike chain (only somewhat useful with the Turn Based mod and large damage dice weapons).

How many d4 hits you need to match this?
https://i.imgur.com/vAbqqc4.jpg

Also if you enjoy big numbers, there's also the Vital Strike + Cleaving Finish Interaction
https://imgur.com/a/xGMELb3

[burningmime]

Originally posted by haplok:

Those monk weapons don't play to a Sword Saint's strengths. Have sucky crit range AND base damage range. While a SS starting at level 4 can boost critical damage multiplier and maximize weapon damage.

This can lead to some broken damage numbers, when you double enlarge your heavy weapon and possibly also use the Vital Strike chain (only somewhat useful with the Turn Based mod and large damage dice weapons).

How many d4 hits you need to match this?
https://i.imgur.com/vAbqqc4.jpg

Also if you enjoy big numbers, there's also the Vital Strike + Cleaving Finish Interaction
https://imgur.com/a/xGMELb3

That relies on finding oversized weapons. Also, it's only useful in the endgame..

The hardest part of the game happens around level 8-10, followed up by the level 1-5 areas. Optimizing your build for endgame seems like a waste.

[Eonwe]

Well built swordsaint are awesome. Enough that it kinda breaks the game, unless you play on unfair.

Sure you won't hit like a truck (like in those screenshots above) before late game, but before that you're still doing very decent damages and you're almost unhittable (very good AC + mirror images).

[Doombringer]

Originally posted by haplok:

Yeah they stack. That being said, why would you delay and forfeit the awesome abilities of an already untouchable sword saint?

I wasn't saying sword saint/duelist is better or anything, it is not obvious that they would stack though - so I was pointing that out.

As a note: the 2hand fighter auto-crit can hit harder than your sword saint, but 2hand fighter is junk outside of that 1 ability (no spells, no defense, not a lot of bonus dps from class, 2hand isn't great dps anyways).
(Also weird note: 2hand fighter piledriver ability works with ranged weapons... (at least with 2hand ones).)

[haplok]

Originally posted by burningmime:

That relies on finding oversized weapons. Also, it's only useful in the endgame..

The hardest part of the game happens around level 8-10, followed up by the level 1-5 areas. Optimizing your build for endgame seems like a waste.

There's plenty of oversized weapons. Granted generally starting in Act IV.

Using greataxes a similar performance is possible. But bastard swords have the flexibility - can use normal versions one-handed and take advantage of Spell Combat & Spellstrike abilities or switch to massive, exclusively two-handed versions and start the carnage.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by haplok:

Originally posted by burningmime:

That relies on finding oversized weapons. Also, it's only useful in the endgame..

The hardest part of the game happens around level 8-10, followed up by the level 1-5 areas. Optimizing your build for endgame seems like a waste.

There's plenty of oversized weapons. Granted generally starting in Act IV.

Using greataxes a similar performance is possible. But bastard swords have the flexibility - can use normal versions one-handed and take advantage of Spell Combat & Spellstrike abilities or switch to massive, exclusively two-handed versions and start the carnage.

As mentioned, I like the idea of Two-Handed/Oversized for Sword Saint due to lack of spell slots to actually get mileage out of spell strike/combat.

One of the better/best weapons for Sword Saint is the Serpent Prince Fauchard. It's not oversized, but it has 1d10 dmg, 1d6 Acid dmg, +3 Enhancement Bonus, 18-20 Crit Range, Destructive for x3 Crit Damage and has a 6 foot reach for attacks of opportunity. For those who don't know, it's a low tier Exotic Artisan weapon (Second Rank).

The Oppressor Bastard Sword is in the same item deck/rank as the Serpent Prince. i believe the Oppressor was an instant access rank 1 exotic weapon early on, but was moved up to rank two (because it was game breaking for Valerie I guess).

Anyways, Serpent Prince being that low in the item tier system means you can gain access to it easily between Chapters 2-3 by just doing the Artisan quest for Shaynih'a, building her artisan shop and/or upgrading her village. It's also a great weapon to just sell early for gold too. Unfortunately, it's more random than other Artisan items because Shaynih'a has only one deck. There's also 5 rank one weapons in her deck where most other Artisans have only 2-3. The good thing is that artisans do favour the higher ranking artisan items available over the lower tier ones.

You can cheat like I did and use the Kingdom Resolution mod to find out what item an Artisan is going to make. :)

[haplok]

It's a good weapon, sure. But like all two-handers, it denies the use of Spell Combat (or effective Spellstrike for that matter). And that's useful in the first half of the game.

And come late game, its lagging behind the top weapons enchantment/damage damage-wise. Other weapon categories are +5 (or even effectively +7 like Perfection or Furious oversized bastard). Here a SS can make them +5 - but generally at the cost of another enchantment, for example something like Axiomatic/Holy +2d6.

The top fauchard is Mastery - and its great - for specific, Combat Maneuver oriented builds, that is. A Sword Saint does not excel in this area.

Plus a Sword Saint certainly does not need the safety of attacking from the back row - he should be at the front, tanking like a champ for the whole party.

If I wanted to make an exclusively two-handed Sword Saint, I'd go for greataxes and Vanquisher instead. Can also be gotten early if you don't mind a little cheese - and is guaranteed instead of random. Deals a lot more damage per hit/crit.