Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
Discussions Rules and Guidelines
Report this post
Didn't bother me much, as I was still getting 2 fist attacks with flurry and it seemed the bite attack was also still at full Attack Bonus and damage.
As to why... Having 3 full Attack Bonus attacks at level 2, that you can execute regardless of moving in the same round, handily beats any other form of weapons you can realistically get before level ~10. They can be magic too with Amulets of Mighty Fists.
And even when iterative attacks and equipment eventually catch up, you still keep the extra Bite attack (although at -5 AB then and 1/2 Str bonus - as "Secondary" attack). That can auto-trip enemies with a certain early cloak.
Of course, its more tricky for dex builds. There are Agile amulets (one early in Act 2), but it will be a while before you can get a hold of a nicely + enchanted Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists.
This question reminds me on the bug, oktavia had for a very long time (even still in my last gamethrough in november): not being able to give her the weapon of my choice, as she was firing acid bold (or what was it?), even as she had a +4 lightning crossbow with all kind of additions.
A difference of like 6 damage vs 30 damage or more. plus: being able to do more attacks. Or being able to hit an ememy with resistence. There are a lot of reasons why i like to have the choice of weapons. And not being forced by some not-thinking-dev.
This bug caused me to not put Oktavia in my team for a very long time. Even i did like her. Even as i was always asking myself, if the guy responsilbe for programming her put all of his/her hate of a lost relationship in this character. (This "i-am-stupid!" - voice for a sorcerer with intelligence 16 or so? seriously?)
I like to have my own choice of weapons in this.
And why to use claws instead of magic weapons? haplok explained it really good.
Plus, sometimes its a matter of speed. If you use claw attacks, its faster then casting. And against some of the mid-bosses i was only successful, because i hit them hard and fast before they could cast something at all. Allowing them to cast would always result in some resistence, which then made them invincible.
And regarding:
have you tried to put the claws as an right-click-always-on-thing? As putting it in as a standard attack?
This entire reasoning is more or less invalid for the way Octavia deals damage. Octavia has at best 3/4 BAB most of the time. Usually less. Crossbows deal sneak attack damage but don't deal any damage from stats. Her max attacks per round is 3, with crap accuracy.
For a majority of enemies Acid Splash does more damage per round than a crossbow on her. Yep. A single acid splash is expected to deal more damage than three attacks with a crossbow because it attacks touch, and that's generally +5-10 accuracy alone. It doesn't matter if you expect to deal 5x the (base) damage with teh crossbow if 80% of your damage is sneak attack dice and you hit 50% less with the crossbow.
I don´t agree (let me check her skills for giving you the calculations). And it should still be my damn own decision, if i want it or not. Most of the players are NOT stupid. They know how to count. They know, what kind of attack they want. And are NOT happy with some "eat ♥♥♥♥-or-die-behaviour" from some programmers. And its a bug, not a feature. Otherwise they would have put in in every other member of the group, too. But somehow i have the slight impression, even the last guy of the team has realized, that they do not like it.
This "feature" caused me and a lot of other players to take her out the active group because of this forced use of her powers.
consistently want to prefer the cantrip over an attack.
And they also made sure to add a loophole for her - Autocast Charge and she uses her weapon. This applies to actually any character, but since Octavia is the only one who prefers to use the consistently better ability (touch spell) she's the only one for whom it is important.
You can tell her to use whatever you want her to use. Nothing's stopping you. Nothing has ever stopped you.
Actually, yes, it stopped me. It was only possible after some bigger patch, that i could finally tell her to attack with that and that weapon. It was not possible before the patch. But i still have to do this for every single enemy she attacks.
And i was wrong: she deals 1d3 (!!!) damage against enemies with that attack. in comparison to my lightning bow, which has 4-16 damage (3x20 critical hit). Yes. 1-3 damage against enemies is such a big help.
It might be a help against enemies in the first chapters, where you have level one or so, where enmies have like 4 hitpoints. And because you do not have a lot of other spells. At latest on the second level you get more then annoyed with this forced automode. It can even cause your group to fail.
Auto cast a spell she doesn't have prepared then. It doesn't turn off, she attacks whoever you want attacked with a right click, and finds the next target just fine. (Autocast doesn;t turn off on charge either, one right click and she uses her bow forever).
She deals 1d3+Sneak Attack. If you decided to keep her pure wizard she only has 1d6 from sneak attack (unless you use mods). Sure the bow can deal 4-16 damage but it's against full AC. Even if you assume a +5 bow in order for the bow to deal damage it has to hit Ac that's an upwards of 10 or 15 points higher than what the cantrip needs to hit.
If the cantrip only has a 50/50 the bow has a 5% chance to hit most of the time. 50% of 1-3 is more than 5% of 4-16. If you went the AT route then both of them deal the bulk of their damge through sneak attack. 50% of sneak attack beats 5% of sneak attack every time. And crits require a confirmation roll, your 5% chance of hitting is a natural 20... which can't crit except (possibly, assuming you can hit) on a 20. And sneak attack dice aren't multiplied on a crit (whcih is the vast bulk of your damage).
Once you're past the point where you "want" to use your cantrip you don't want to make basic attacks anyway. You want to cast AoE spells or ranged touch spells which deal far more damage than your bow can. And when you run out of those.... the bow still deals less damage than the cantrip unless the enemy has no defenses at all. And the bow won't really contribute compared to the fighter/rogue/magus/paladin/barbarian/ranger doing 7 attacks a round for minimum 30 damage an attack. Wooo 3 attacks that are almost giuaranteed to miss.
because A) with some builds (notably high strength, low BAB ones) natural weapons make sense and B) with amulet of mighty fists and certain spells (or feats) claws are magic weapons too.
Alchemist can basically choose between 3 natural attacks or 3 Weapon attacks (light weapon) + 2 Natural attacks or 6 Weapon attacks (TWF) + 1 Natural Attack. The second and third options are better DPS than the first (the third option is the best DPS).
(Feral Mutagen is bugged though, as are several other similar class features. They'll fix it eventually.)
And your calculation is wrong: The chance to hit depends on the AC of the enemy, which varies in the game. But lets say the enemy had an AC of 28. Oktavia in my file had an attack of +17. So, if she throws an 11 or higher, she hits. Its an 50% Hit chance. And then she makes an critical hit with 3 times the damage, if she hits. Lets take ten attacks as an measurement. If you take out luck and take the pur calculation, you have 5 times 4-16 (=20-80) basic damage. Lets assume, one out of them gets an 20 roll (5% possibility) and succeeded at the 50% chance of hitting, then this one hit makes 12-48 dmg. so, the minimum damage is 32-112 dmg. (5x 4-16 + 1x12-48). In average 56 points.
If i take your spell, and take your 50/50, she makes 5x1d3+5x1d6= 5-15 + 15-> 20-35 -> 18 dmg.
Wooo, yes, i rather take my bow then this spell.
Edit: But leave it. You are right, some of your calculation were only valid for an unchanged path. I took her up as a multiclass character, which changes the whole calculation...
You can use a bow, but in most DPR races it's the wrong call with a well built Octavia, esp with the ability to throw out a sneak attack hellfire ray and just go DELETE! on any target you really want dead.
I must admit, i could not argue with autocython, as i took an whole other path, makes my point invalid in calcultion. but as the autospell cantrip was always on, it did not any matter, as she was always using this lesser attack, regardless, what you did with her. And hellfire ray has the same problem as the other spells: its limited. and after some time your spells are used.
But the whole question was not only, if the cantrip was even better to this and that, but that you were forced to use it, no matter, what you prefered. And THATs the point i criticize here. It was an bad spell and you were forced to use it. Because of some beta testers, who tested only a very small part of the game. (as half of the game was released without bug testing.)
So let's take your math here. 28 AC. How much touch AC do you think they have? *opens google for pathfinder stats*[docs.google.com]
So if the stats are anything similar to tabletop then your touch attack is making a roll against 10 AC. If we assume your crossbow is +5 that leaves your cantrip wit ha +12 to hit... Which is a 100% (95%) hit chance. I'll be generous and assume an average AC of 18 for touch attacks since the table in the link is across all enemies in the handbooks and kingamker tends toward medium humanoids (with an average +2 to everything).
So your croissbow makes two oattacks a round II'm going to assume that's what you have the BAB for, but realistically an AC28 enemy is turning up before you get your seocnd attack and while you still have +3 weapons) at +17/+12 agains AC 28. Let's really load the dice here and say you have 5 Sneak attack dice (that's what you assumed for the cantrip). That gives you an average hit of 30. Your DPR (factoring crit) is then 27.266.
What about your cantrip? Well 5 sneak attack dice against an AC of 18 with +12 to hit is a DPR of 17.82
I gave the cantrip a -8 penalty to hit (just in case) and it's still dealing 2/3 the damage of your 2 crossbow attacks per round. (Also basically everything you tried to do for math is wrong, but I'm gonna let that slide).