The Swordlords are Evil and the Surtovas are actually Good!

[BloodDragon]

The Swordlords want to start a pointless war because they were conquered a long time ago, although they clearly do not seem to be suffering from oppression.
They want to betray their legal Surtova rulers just to become more powerfull.
And commiting treason wghich is an evil act according to the Pathfinder rulebook.
They also gave you the Stolen Lands without telling you that it's cursed.

[Giubbo]

Originally posted by dodo00d:

The Swordlords want to start a pointless war because they were conquered a long time ago, although they clearly do not seem to be suffering under oppression.

Agree.

They want to betray their legal Surtova rulers just to become more powerfull.

Afaik i never saw any lore tidbits that the Surtova were the only noble house married in the royal family, so defining them "legal" ruler isn't true

And commiting treason is an evil act according to the Pathfinder rulebook.

Nope treason is chaotic

They also gave you the Stolen Lands without telling you that it's cursed.

They do not know it's cursed

[BloodDragon]

There is no reason to question the validity of their claim why else would the go to war with them in the first place. Instead of fighting it legally?

Treason is definitley evil unless the chaotic character is suffering from opression which is not the case.

Jamandi travelled the Stolen Lands according to the storyteller so there is no way she couldn't have noticed that there is something really wrong with this place.

[For_Science!]

TheSwordlords aren't good guys, and never claim to be. They're arrogant, prickly bastards who are always looking for a fight, and they take pride in these traits. But where did you get the idea that the Surtovas are good?

Shandra certainly isn't. Among other things, she tells a story of intentionally sending a squad of her soldiers to die in an ambush as an opening move in a larger plan...and as she summarizes her victory in the end, she says the only cost was "three bards' time." The dead soldiers don't even merit an entry in her calculations.

The Swordlord-Surtova conflict seems more about Law vs. Chaos than Good vs. Evil.

[BloodDragon]

Originally posted by For_Science!:

TheSwordlords aren't good guys, and never claim to be. They're arrogant, prickly bastards who are always looking for a fight, and they take pride in these traits. But where did you get the idea that the Surtovas are good?

Shandra certainly isn't. Among other things, she tells a story of intentionally sending a squad of her soldiers to die in an ambush as an opening move in a larger plan...and as she summarizes her victory in the end, she says the only cost was "three bards' time." The dead soldiers don't even merit an entry in her calculations.

The Swordlord-Surtova conflict seems more about Law vs. Chaos than Good vs. Evil.

When you chose between allying with Surtovos, Swordlords or staying neutral after the barbarian battle , the choice to ally with the Swordlords is labled as a Good action.

[aramintai]

Swordlords weren't conquered by Surtovas, but by a Choral the Conqueror who conquered all of the families, united Restov (ruled by Swordlords) and Issia (ruled by Surtovas) by force and called it Brevoy. And it happened mere two hundred something years back - way too little time to forget freedom, own identity or stop holding a grudge. He then started his own royal family and called it Rogarvia. Those Rogarvias married into other Brevoy noble families, Surtovas included. But then they all disappeared through some mysterious ways. Without the royal family, Surtovas may claim to be next in line but they don't have a firm grip on the country so it's no wonder people wanted to get back to the way it was before and be free. They seem to be capable of ruling themselves, so why not help them? In the game, siding with the Swordlords turns out as the best ending for the Stolen Lands - you get a loyal ally. If you choose to mediate between the two nations - they continue to be at each others throats and relationship with them and the Stolen Lands becomes lukewarm.

Even the smallest nations in our real world conquered by bigger nations a long time ago rarely forget how they were free and frequently start wars to gain independence. But that's not something evil in itself.

Btw, Jamandi is Chaotic Good and Natala Surtova is Lawful Evil in the game.

[Giubbo]

Originally posted by dodo00d:

There is no reason to question the validity of their claim why else would the go to war with them in the first place. Instead of fighting it legally?

Treason is definitley evil unless the chaotic character is suffering from opression which is not the case.

Jamandi travelled the Stolen Lands according to the storyteller so there is no way she couldn't have noticed that there is something really wrong with this place.

Originally posted by aramintai:

Swordlords weren't conquered by Surtovas, but by a Choral the Conqueror who conquered all of the families, united Restov (ruled by Swordlords) and Issia (ruled by Surtovas) by force and called it Brevoy. And it happened mere two hundred something years back - way too little time to forget freedom, own identity or stop holding a grudge. He then started his own royal family and called it Rogarvia. Those Rogarvias married into other Brevoy noble families, Surtovas included. But then they all disappeared through some mysterious ways. Without the royal family, Surtovas may claim to be next in line but they don't have a firm grip on the country so it's no wonder people wanted to get back to the way it was before and be free. They seem to be capable of ruling themselves, so why not help them? In the game, siding with the Swordlords turns out as the best ending for the Stolen Lands - you get a loyal ally. If you choose to mediate between the two nations - they continue to be at each others throats and relationship with them and the Stolen Lands becomes lukewarm.

Even the smallest nations in our real world conquered by bigger nations a long time ago rarely forget how they were free and frequently start wars to gain independence. But that's not something evil in itself.

Btw, Jamandi is Chaotic Good and Natala Surtova is Lawful Evil in the game.

What he said

[BloodDragon]

Originally posted by Giubbo:

Originally posted by dodo00d:

There is no reason to question the validity of their claim why else would the go to war with them in the first place. Instead of fighting it legally?

Treason is definitley evil unless the chaotic character is suffering from opression which is not the case.

Jamandi travelled the Stolen Lands according to the storyteller so there is no way she couldn't have noticed that there is something really wrong with this place.

Originally posted by aramintai:

Swordlords weren't conquered by Surtovas, but by a Choral the Conqueror who conquered all of the families, united Restov (ruled by Swordlords) and Issia (ruled by Surtovas) by force and called it Brevoy. And it happened mere two hundred something years back - way too little time to forget freedom, own identity or stop holding a grudge. He then started his own royal family and called it Rogarvia. Those Rogarvias married into other Brevoy noble families, Surtovas included. But then they all disappeared through some mysterious ways. Without the royal family, Surtovas may claim to be next in line but they don't have a firm grip on the country so it's no wonder people wanted to get back to the way it was before and be free. They seem to be capable of ruling themselves, so why not help them? In the game, siding with the Swordlords turns out as the best ending for the Stolen Lands - you get a loyal ally. If you choose to mediate between the two nations - they continue to be at each others throats and relationship with them and the Stolen Lands becomes lukewarm.

Even the smallest nations in our real world conquered by bigger nations a long time ago rarely forget how they were free and frequently start wars to gain independence. But that's not something evil in itself.

Btw, Jamandi is Chaotic Good and Natala Surtova is Lawful Evil in the game.

What he said

There is peace at the moment in Brevoy peace is allways better than conflict. Jamandi is simply a warmonger who wants to gain power through treachery,
Aside from that it's completly normal for countries to merge, Europe used to have dozens of small kingdoms which fought endless wars ahgainst each other. Most of them were conquered and the continent is now much more peacefull.

[aramintai]

Originally posted by dodo00d:

There is peace at the moment in Brevoy peace is allways better than conflict. Jamandi is simply a terrorist who wants to gain power through treachery,

If Jamandi wanted power she'd have wanted to conquer Brevoy, not just gain independence again. As a ruler her duty is to her people and since they've expressed their desire to be independent again she's working towards that. They want a better life than under the yoke of Surtovas and that's their right. If the government doesn't want to agree to a peaceful seccession then it's also their right to turn it into a war for independence.
Also, you should check a definition for a word "terrorist" before flinging it around, it's silly to call them that. Political opponent would be more correct.

[aramintai]

Originally posted by dodo00d:

Aside from that it's completly normal for countries to merge, Europe used to have dozens of small kingdoms which fought endless wars ahgainst each other. Most of them were conquered and the continent is now much more peacefull.

That's also silly to generalize. Some conquered nations didn't have the means to regain independence and were assimilated, forgetting their identity. Some also didn't have the means but didn't assimilate and continue to grumble and be at odds with the rest of the country's populaton. Some nations regained their independence through various means (Baltic countries, for example) after some time and are more content with that, though continue to be at odds with their late oppressors. Some conquered nations still desperately trying to gain independence either through peacuful voting means or agressive acts of terrorism (Spain, for example). It all may look civilized and peaceful, but in reality there is always discontent here and there, especially recently with the rise of nationalistic ideas around the world, everybody wants to be a special snowflake in a big globalization cauldron.

[derricks7]

Treason is not evil dodo00d. It's chaotic as mentioned. Treason against evil to do good is not evil. Treason against good to do evil is evil.

[BloodDragon]

Originally posted by derricks7:

Treason is not evil dodo00d. It's chaotic as mentioned. Treason against evil to do good is not evil. Treason against good to do evil is evil.

Oh I hate this useless alignment system. It just creates misunderstandings.
Gygax should have removed that ♥♥♥♥ back when he was still alive but now it will taint DND forever.

[Cloudhunter]

If you google around, you will find out, that the devs took the story of this game from some pen&paper adventures in the world of Pathfinder. In this world Restov is some kind of oppressing overlord, from which you can try to gain independence via fighting them. It should not matter, if you take the swordlords or Surtavas. Both of them were in general not your friends. The devs changed that a bit. They are an foreign power, which do hate each other. And you are the third party, which can choose for either side. Depending on your choice, you have an different ending at the final screen. I guess, the devs didn´t know, how much of this stuff they should put into, as in the game there is for example mentioning of "swordlords academies", which you cannot build. At least i could not build them, even as the swordlords were my "allies".

Another point is, that Restov was activly destroying Varnhold, as they were sending their prisoners there. In the game the guys from Varnhold will tell you about the problems they have from masses of oullaws coming from Restov. In this regard you learn, that they oppressing their own people in a very harsh way, which let the prisons overflow and then sending them to Varnhold, causing instability and chaos.
I would neither of the houses describe as good. They are both evil or at least chaotic.

[aramintai]

Originally posted by Cloudhunter:

If you google around, you will find out, that the devs took the story of this game from some pen&paper adventures in the world of Pathfinder. In this world Restov is some kind of oppressing overlord, from which you can try to gain independence via fighting them. It should not matter, if you take the swordlords or Surtavas. Both of them were in general not your friends. The devs changed that a bit. They are an foreign power, which do hate each other. And you are the third party, which can choose for either side. Depending on your choice, you have an different ending at the final screen. I guess, the devs didn´t know, how much of this stuff they should put into, as in the game there is for example mentioning of "swordlords academies", which you cannot build. At least i could not build them, even as the swordlords were my "allies".

Another point is, that Restov was activly destroying Varnhold, as they were sending their prisoners there. In the game the guys from Varnhold will tell you about the problems they have from masses of oullaws coming from Restov. In this regard you learn, that they oppressing their own people in a very harsh way, which let the prisons overflow and then sending them to Varnhold, causing instability and chaos.
I would neither of the houses describe as good. They are both evil or at least chaotic.

I've googled and haven't found any such info about Restov oppressing player kingdom. Is this from some paid P&P adventure module? In the game you automatically gain independence once you upgrade from vassal barony to kingdom.
And btw, sending ex-prisoners to settle untamed lands isn't something new or bad, it's a chance to start fresh. Doesn't Australia come to mind? Also, there was an ex-criminal artisan in Varnhold who turned over a new leaf there and started both her own leatherwork shop and local militia. And more btw, most of the ruling houses in River Kingdoms were ex-criminals, pirates and other misfits who didn't fit in the more civilized countries.
And you can build a Swordlord Academy - it's one of the big endgame buildings and you have to make according choices and raise according kingdom stats for it (iirc, it's military).

[Yaldabaoth]

The usual discussion of evil and good. People, can you please just realize that good/evil on the alignment scale do not include judgement? Sometimes the "evil" thing is the smart and morally just thing to do. That does not mean it is "bad".

[nym_moondown]

Originally posted by Yaldabaoth:

The usual discussion of evil and good. People, can you please just realize that good/evil on the alignment scale do not include judgement? Sometimes the "evil" thing is the smart and morally just thing to do. That does not mean it is "bad".

Do you think there can be good and evil without judgement? Oh, yes, you can further judge them, but judgement is already there.