Location DCs

[Tanlaus]

I'm nearing the end of my second run. Just about to enter the house at the edge of time. This game is definitely a lot cleaner (in terms of bugs) than my first play through. And it seems more balanced as well. Though honestly I think the random encounters may have been tuned down a bit too much. But overall a pretty smooth play through.

One thing that still seems off to me though, are some of the location DCs. Maybe I just noticed it more this time because I knew locations were there that I couldn't spot, but especially on the western side of the map, my main was an AT walking around with a +34 perception and certain spots that had monsters I needed to kill to finish a certain quest would just not appear.

This is one area that I feel might still need some adjustment. I don't mind missing traps or occasionally not opening a chest, but not being able to find random areas even with a high level perception seems like a recipe to miss big chunks of the game.

[kaymarciy]

There's still the option of sending scouts with your Minister to locate all unrevealed locations.

[Tanlaus]

Originally posted by kaymarciy:

There's still the option of sending scouts with your Minister to locate all unrevealed locations.

Yeah, for some reason I only got that option for the Kamelands this plsythrough. I feel like if the DCs are that high there shouldn’t be anything random about the scout cards.

[For_Science!]

Do you train Perception just on your MC, or on everyone? The rolls to locate areas are (presumably) a d20 roll, which each character can try only once per level...so it's a good idea to have some backup in case the MC botches a roll.

[Tanlaus]

Pretty much everyone. If there is one skill everyone should have it’s that. I just pointed out my main had a pretty high one.

Anyway it’s not the biggest deal in the world... and for the record I could finish that quest using dimension door, but it occurred to me, as I was entering the end game, some of those DCs might be a bit high, especially if you’re new to the game.

[Matt]

Also, +34 perception by the endgame is good but it's doable to have much more.

At level 16, an inquisitor with 16 WIS can "easily" have +41.

(ranks:16, CS:+3, WIS:+3, Skill focus:+6, Glasses:+5, Stern gaze:+8. I'm not even factoring in the Persuasive feat, which really makes sense for an inquisitor and would raise PER to +45)

I'm not a big fan of having a high Perception on several chars: That is kind of a waste of skill points, since a char with a high enough Perception won't miss a single roll after Chapter 1 (and very few rolls during chapter 1).

Edit: My bad, if you're wearing the glasses, you can't have a Headband of WIS.

[Morgian]

Yes, you are not guaranteed to find some areas. They are all tied to the Barrow quest, as far as I know, which is an optional treasure hunt.
I got a scout mission for the western area, which I needed on my first try, because I did not train a spotter then. Several guys with +18 are not as good as one with +30.
I believe there is no random roll involved with locations. You either have the required skill or you don't. There is evidence for that with Armag's Tomb. If you have only one of the two clues and perception 26 you find it, if you have 1 point less you don't. There were sevral posts about that at the time on this forum.

[Tanlaus]

Originally posted by Matt:

Also, +34 perception by the endgame is good but it's doable to have much more.

At level 16, an inquisitor with 16 WIS can "easily" have +44.

(ranks:16, CS:+3, WIS:+3+3, Skill focus:+6, Glasses:+5, Stern gaze:+8. I'm not even factoring in the Persuasive feat, which really makes sense for an inquisitor)

I'm not a big fan of having a high Perception on several chars: That is kind of a waste of skill points, since a char with a high enough Perception won't miss a single roll after Chapter 1 (and very few rolls during chapter 1).

I’m sure if I’d had a pure rogue- didn’t use Nok Nok this run- I’d have hit higher numbers as well. But 34 is relatively high, especially for locations.

I could have grabbed him and/or Jaethal (who I also wasn’t using since I had them both almost full time in my last run) kitted them out just to max perception and wandered near the areas I knew I was missing, but it was faster just to use dimension door.

High level traps or hidden objects I get keeping really high DCs for. I just feel like having players potentially miss quest content because of a combination of bad rolls and not getting scout cards in time is not ideal game design,

[Tanlaus]

Originally posted by Morgian:

Yes, you are not guaranteed to find some areas. They are all tied to the Barrow quest, as far as I know, which is an optional treasure hunt.
I got a scout mission for the western area, which I needed on my first try, because I did not train a spotter then. Several guys with +18 are not as good as one with +30.
I believe there is no random roll involved with locations. You either have the required skill or you don't. There is evidence for that with Armag's Tomb. If you have only one of the two clues and perception 26 you find it, if you have 1 point less you don't. There were sevral posts about that at the time on this forum.

I see why Armag’s tomb works the way it does. There are story driven ways to lower the DC.

[Morgian]

Yes, but my point is that there is no roll involved with this one.

On something completely different: has stern gaze a different effect than in p&p? It would not do anything for your perception there, only for intimidate and sense motive (which we didn't get).

[Matt]

Pure Rogue is OK but Nok Nok isn't: he's a Knife Master.

As for the game requiring really high Perception rolls, well, if it didn't then there would be no real use for the rogue's or inquisitor's skyhigh Perception.

[Matt]

And yeah, Stern Gaze adds to Perception, which it doesn't do in PnP. However, this is documented ingame.

[Morgian]

Too lazy to click on play ;) I am not a fan of the class, either. And still pining for the oracle

[Tanlaus]

Originally posted by Matt:

Pure Rogue is OK but Nok Nok isn't: he's a Knife Master.

As for the game requiring really high Perception rolls, well, if it didn't then there would be no real use for the rogue's or inquisitor's skyhigh Perception.

Oh that’s right, knifemasters don’t get trapfinding. I think I knew that when I was actually using him.

And I partially disagree. I still think there is use for sky high perception in finding traps and hidden objects later in the game.

But even without changing DCs I think there should be some sort of hard timer on getting the scout cards. Like maybe once you make an area part of your kingdom.

[Matt]

Originally posted by Tanlaus:

But even without changing DCs I think there should be some sort of hard timer on getting the scout cards. Like maybe once you make an area part of your kingdom.

I do agree, that would make sense (strory-wise as well as game mechanics-wise)

Since we're talking about perception, can anyone confirm if the spell Find Traps works to discover traps ? I know for sure that it doesn't work for discovering hidden loot, but I'm unsure about traps.

[Altonu]

The wording of find traps makes me beleive it should work the same as the inquisitor ability (and as such, probably would not stack with it). I never considered that it might not be working as worded, but after the above comment, I will need to look for an opportunity to test it in the future (save on an unexplored map, and find a perception check in a known location, load initial save, cast find traps, then examine log to see if you skill check refelects a bonus for it)

* Tested find trap on both Jaethal and Harrim. Can confirm it adds to perception on both of them for finding traps. Also tested on hidden loot and creatures. No bonus applied to either of those. Working as it should, but NOT as worded.

What I'm trying to figure out is what a "good enough" perception level is. At level 10, Jaethal has a perception of 34 (I took skill focus perception and did a 1 level dip in rogue for an extra perception point and sneak attack), but even with swapping perception goggles, my next highest character is only 22 (Harrim).

I don't dislike jaethal, but I also don't like feeling completely dependent on her for perception checks, and I'd like to be able to swap her out ocasionaly.

It would be very helpful to know what the highest known perception DC in the game is in each chapter (or at least in the end game to know what to shoot for)