Weapon training : Close....?

[imminence]

So, my S&N-fighter reached level 9 and I got another weapon training.
I saw - among all the other weapon groups - the entry "close" and then that shields belong to this group.

Because she uses a shield, I took that hroup. Now I'm a bit confused:

Must she have the two weapon fight feat to use that shield as a weapon?


All in al, the pathfinder fighter is an interesting option, IMO.

[Tam]

I cannot answer you for sure. BUT. There is a shield feed that needs two weapon figthing so I would assume she does.

[khinra]

You need shield bash feat to start smashing people with that shield, two weapon fighter (and the improvements) make it easier and more effective. If you go all out it can cost you like 6-7 feats in total but it ends up being pretty decent.

[mr1029384756]

Two weapon fighting is a must to fully utilize shield bash as a part of your full attack. TWF + Shield Focus + Shield Bash will begin a journey down the path of true sword-and-board combat.

But it starts with 15 DEX and 13 INT (Two-Weapon Fighting and Combat Expertise, respectively) which is a heavy price that doesn't leave much for multiclassing outside of Fighter, even if your character is human.

But here's the thing concerning tower shields: They are straight defense and defense-strategy enablers. You cannot shield bash with them, nor can you two-weapon fight with them. This is why Valerie is kitted out from the start with all the feats and attributes required for Stalwart Defender from level 1 onwards.

[imminence]

I have a plain fighter.... tower shields are not my thing.

Why must I have combat expertise?

[mr1029384756]

Originally posted by imminence:

I have a plain fighter.... tower shields are not my thing.

Why must I have combat expertise?

Early-game extra defense for DEX based fighters (although STR can get some milliage out of it, too), but also because it opens up Trip and another feat. Trip is ludicrously helpful for a shield-focused build, DEX or STR focused.

[imminence]

Ok, I see...

So, I respecced her (using the mod) and notice, that her to hit ability with her main weapon (falcata) dropped to 11, when I have shield bash enabled. Compared to 17 of my former build that's a harsh penalty.

I have improved two weapon fighting and wanted to take another weapon focus for the falcata, but it wasn't possuble. Now, am I linitied to the shield and must neglect my main weapon totally?

See here:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1581968720

[Super-XIX]

That's TWF penalties when not using a Light weapon in your offhand. In practice, you either need Shield Master (assuming they fixed it to properly remove penalties) or to use a Light Shield in your offhand.

[imminence]

Did I overlook that shield master feat or is it something for later levels?

[Super-XIX]

It's got pretty steep prereqs iirc, which is why Rangers are cool for being able to get early entry.

[imminence]

It seems to be a great tradeoff, at least frim what I can see now.

Positive:
The fighter is a true tank, unbuffed AC of around 35 at level 9

Negative:
As I wrote: With the penalty she hits for nothing and when she accidentially hits, the damage is ridiculous with both, her first weapon and the shield.

She can get shield mastery with a BAB of 11, so to say at level 11. That means, the entire "Bloom"-campaingn she will be nothing but a meat shield.

When I put my efforts into "normal" builds, she deals at level 9 50 dmg with her falcata on a regular base (crit) and has the greater trip feat. Further, she has an unbuffed to hit ability of 17 and about the same AC.

So, why should I sacrifice so much for that shield-branch?

[mr1029384756]

Originally posted by imminence:

It seems to be a great tradeoff, at least frim what I can see now.

Positive:
The fighter is a true tank, unbuffed AC of around 35 at level 9

Negative:
As I wrote: With the penalty she hits for nothing and when she accidentially hits, the damage is ridiculous with both, her first weapon and the shield.

She can get shield mastery with a BAB of 11, so to say at level 11. That means, the entire "Bloom"-campaingn she will be nothing but a meat shield.

When I put my efforts into "normal" builds, she deals at level 9 50 dmg with her falcata on a regular base (crit) and has the greater trip feat. Further, she has an unbuffed to hit ability of 17 and about the same AC.

So, why should I sacrifice so much for that shield-branch?

Because enemies aggro off the highest AC character, which opens them up to SA, touch AC attacks, and flanking feats. And if you want your meat shield to last longer, then these feats are worth it... for a fighter. A fighter has feats to bleed, whereas other classes have SA, rage powers, spells, and the like to define them. You can build around shield attack... especially once spiked shields finally come out.

[imminence]

Ok, "spiked shields" sounds good. Perhaps with the DLC...

[Super-XIX]

Just use a Light Shield for now and your to-hit penalty will be significantly lower. Heavy Shields are not for TWF early on.

[Entropie]

I do recall the patchnotes stating that shield master is fixed now, though it should be noted that if it works as intended it will only negate the malus on your shield attacks, the malus on the mainhand should not be negated, so using a light shield may still make sense even with that feat active.

[Morgian]

There are at least two shields around which are made for bashing. One is a light spiked shield, and the other is the one from the ghost queen quest in Pitax.
Use always a light weapon in the offhand to minimize to-hit penalties. Shieldmaster is in p&p a fantastic feat, but requires you to be level 12 iirc.