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Maximize IS a crap, because you can cast much more efficient spells instead of it.
"Damage boost" almost never making it's comparatible with high level spells PLUS you have troubles with enemy saves and SR (and endgame have a lot of SR).
You can focus on spells that don't allow saves. It even better way in terms of single-target DPR, while aoe DPR still remain high.
+1 on dice is at best 16.(6)% boost. Seems you have some troubles with math.
*Facepalm* Maximize aren't affecting sneak attack bonus. And currently hellfire ray have 6 rays instead of 6. Are you really playing this game or theorycrafting only?
Lvl 6 screams "ROD!" "ROD!" "ROD!". Using rod for bossess & heighten overall you can get ~ three times more hellfire rays.
It's far, far better.
Maximized lesser rod isn't extremly expensive and avaiable early.
SR still an issue (mych less for heighten).
Again - three times more rays + 3 cast of maximized one for boss is better.
Hit & fire resistance issues.
You're completely forget to SUBTRACT dps losses from wasted high-level spells, aren't you? :)
If comparing like you - yean, fighter specialization feat is +100% compared with fighting with naked arms :)
Heighten allow you to cleanize whole location, throwing spells here and there - and still have some juice remain.
For blaster sorcerer it's insane boost of versatility from single feat (and we're very feat starved).
P.S. So fun to see how players try to create meta here, forgetting that PnP Pathfinder exist for a loooong time and best possible synergies already were found.
Yes, you definitely have issues with math :)
Simple example : DC 20, enemy have +15 on save. You need him roll 1-4 to be affected, so 20% chance to do it.
+1 DC. 25% chance to enemy being affected. +25% effective increase of that chance.
Actually DC boosts help much more when target is heavily protected (ESPECIALLY in multiple round spells like SC). So yean, it's important more for higher difficulty then normal.
Extend mostly wasted on Haste.
Because only on second walkthrough you will know exact enemy placement and will be bold enough to charge several pack without recon (or again something like story mode :) ).
Plus you have tons of Haste scrolls around.
Best extend usage for something with mediocre (1 min / lvl) duration but quite important (like Shield on agile tanks).
Tripple facepalm.
Folks, we have another angry theorycrafter here.
You can't apply same metamagic feat twice.
P.S. You will never need so many damage. And it's insane risky because of SR and hit (do you remember that natural 1 is still miss?).
Nah, save-or-die spells are always bad, was and will be. So your approach is flawed one like "my spells failed? reload / rest after combat!".
16.(6)%. Please, it's basic math. >_<
Yeah? Like what?
Again, WHAT hight level spells? When a 2nd level spell meta'd to 5th level does 60% more damage with NO save compared to a 7th level spell's damage on a failed save, how's that for damage boost?
Ray spells do not allow saves. AOE spells with proper build deal overwhelming damage on a successful save. And almost all spells have to deal with SR, thats why you take Spell Pen. Non SR spells are highly situational and usually inferior damage wise.
You can use no-save single target spells AND AOE spells with boosted DC. That way you get more DPS depending on battle situation. Whereas Heighten is just a waste of feat.
You're the one with math trouble. A d6 roll averages to 3.5, Draconic Arcana adds 1 to every die roll, thus a nearly 30% damage boost.
Wrong on every count:
1) sneak attack is calculated as average, not maximized;
2) draconic arcana does apply to sneak attacks with spells;
3) hellfire ray has 3 rays but 6 sneak attack triggers due to two types of damage.
Rods can still be applied to Empowered/Maximised spells for MORE damage.
Three times? lol! At most you're getting Hellfire for level 7. Levels 8 and 9 can be Hellfired with Empower/Maximize. So that's maybe 25% more Hellfires, at the cost of 2/3rds of you Hellfires being much less powerful (not empowered/maximised). And you can still use level 7 for other metamagicked spells which are also great.
No, it isn't. It is a vastly inferior choice which might only make sense if you're only ever using Ray spells, in which case you can forego spell focus and take Heighten. But then you lose out on AOE damage, which is much higher than rays against large groups of enemies, so an overall DPS loss.
[/quote]Hit & fire resistance issues.[/quote]
Making ranged touch attacks is an issue for all Ray spells. However its much less of an issue on a proper build (20 starting Dex, Vivi dex bonus, WF Ray etc) than beating saves with no spell focus/elemental focus.
And I still have AOE spells that dont need touch attacks and benefit from school/element focus.
I'm comparing it to Heighten, which adds ZERO damage, remember?
And yeah, a properly focused metamagicked spell of the school and element you spec in is usually better than whatever alternatives that spell level has to offer. Exceptions are themselves metamagicked (like scorching ray is replaced by hellfire ray at lvl 6).
Heighten only changes spell level, Empower and Maximize change spell level AND GIVE A MASSIVE DAMAGE BOOST. Thus Heighten is bad compared to them (and Quicken).
The minor DC boost you get from heightening is much less of a benefit than a straight damage increase, and DC is better boosted by specialising.
Furthermore, ray spells do not allow saves, so even that minor DC boost you get from Heighten is useless for them.
As a final nail in the coffin, if its not a ray spell and you are not specialising in a school/element, there is probably a better spell at the level you're Heightening to, making Heighten a pure waste of a feat.
You have just enough feats to take Empower and Maximise as well as 4 Focus feats, 2 Penetration feats, 2 ranged attack feats, and Accomplished SA for a well rounded DPS build. Heighten is worse than any of those feats, and also worse than many others like Extend or WF Ray.
Dont lecture me on PF PnP, I'm well versed in that, as well as D&D 2.0, 3.0 and 3.5. Your position makes no sense even from PnP perspective, but you also forget how MASSIVE the difference between this computer game and PnP really is. Generally in d20 PnP blaster casters are the runts of the litter, but here as in most CRPGs they rule the roost simply due to implementation mechanics. So deferring to PnP is a losing move.
You don't even know how it works? Did you even use metamagic?
The spell can be Maximised via slot (Hellfire to level 9) and then Empowered via rod, or vice versa. Hence Empowered Maximized Hellfire Ray, and yes they do stack.
Funny joke. Yeah sure, why would we talk about ways to get more damage from spells in a thread that is about getting more damage from spells?
And yeah, the entire point of a DPS caster is churning out more damage.
D6 average = 3,5. Please try to remember that. Hence adding 1 is almost a 30% boost. You didnt know that, so apparently you never even played a Draconic Sorcerer and have no idea how high dps can go in this game.
Cloudkill >>> maxed scorching ray in 99.(9)% fights.
Long-lasting AoE that don't damage friendlies is... awesome.
And again - it never doing 60% more damage. You again threat metamagic as it have no cost. It have.
Yup, and this why Heighten is awesome.
And if you was "happy" enough to roll only 1's - it will even give you 50% damage boost.
If you're going to include statistic and average values - then we need to recalculate everything, including your metamagic "gains". And if so, for example, Heighten WILL be DpR gain.
But you're blind to it and using statistic only when it seems to emphasize your build ideas :)
In short words : if you're calculating average dice damage here, but ignore increase of DC&SR pen on damage output - then you're cheating here. Either simple calculation in both cases, either full statistic in both. Or you're creating something like Diesel-gate by mixing different approaches.
P.S. And actually Maximization reduce Draconic Arcana efficiency :P
You're funny one :) In one paragraph you're saying that focusing on sinle ray spell is a bad idea - then in another (this) is awesome idea :)
First, you again ignoring cost of useless 1 feat.
Second, you're again ignoring versatility. Emp/max hardly boost your CC and weakly boost your AoE ability (saves and SR still an issue). In this case I WILL get three time more spells, because will be able to boost any my spell - including CC one.
Third, most of combats in game aren't including single Big Evil Guy. In this case = more spells is a better. While max HR will be very often a waste.
Overkill damage isn't applied damage, it's effectively wasted in case of constant overkills.
Except it's superior choice and you will get AOE damage and CC ability.
1) more DC = less enemy saves
2) more SPen = less failed spells
PLUS versatility :
3) you will always able to cast spell you will need here and now. Run out of haste? No longer issue. And emp/max build will sometimes force you to take a rest to regain levels with wasted buffs.
Plus some ealy debuffs can be AWESOME later (blindness for example). And trully worth being maxed.
Nice joke :)
Because "proper Ray" build have just two differences from "basic" in case of a bit more Dex and WF Rays. That can be covered by buffs more-or-less.
And well... Human can have both builds in same time :)
Main touch attack issue is auto-miss. And you can't do anything in this game with it (cmon, Luck domain isn't real option).
I'm so proud of your arrogance :)
You're using average value when it suit your intent - and ignoring when it's not.
1) Heighen DO add damage. Do I need decribe to you - how?
2) Instead of metamagic spell you can cast ordinary one. So - no, please substract ordinary spell damage from your metamagic one. Only remaining will be a gain.
Main issue of Maximized & Quickened that they aren't gain compared with BASIC spells of higher level. So please, don't cheat and turn this comparison into comparison against Heighten. :)
Huh. Single Stinking Cloud or Cloudkill can be better then several of your rays. But this can be difficulty issues, CC is getting more and more important higher it is.
Nah, metamagic spells usually worse then next level spells.
I will repeat maxed SR <<< Cloudkill.
Also Heighten help you a lot to push Stinking Cloud & Slow on 4-5 levels, freeing your 3rd for Haste & Fireball. Can empower do some? No.
Yean, yean... a gain :) When you're cheating and comparing previous 2nd level of spell with maximized 5th level of spell.
Please - substract damage that can deal 5th level spell. You can cast it INSTEAD of maximized.
And this why you will realize that there's rarely a gain (in fact never a gain in PnP, but here we lack some powerhorses on some levels - definitely need more spells ^_^).
Mob saves get boosted by difficulty too. Surprise!
Huh. Seems you really don't understand how overpowered can be several low-level disable spells when enemy have very few chances to save vs them.
And 9-10 feats. Plus we need Skill Focus (late game checks have tons of juicy xp, and constant reloads isn't an option if you call yourself a gamer).
So mandatory ones already take 9 among them (2 ranged, 1 ASA, 4 focus, 2 pen). Ooops - you're run out of feats!
Cmon, don't tell me that you'd cheated enough exp for lvl 20 :) It's impossible for non-solo walkthrough to reach lvl 20. And for solo one we need different build, not AT.
Calm down, internet hero.
Actually spell-wise we almost don't have any differences. Real time move only affect us, reducing need for high Int & efficiency of in-combat friend&foe affecting CC spells. And we lack some completely broken things that can make caster OP damage dealer (huh, but get cheaty SR and HR instead).
So, no, you're wrong here a lot.
Cloudkill does 1d4 = 2,5 Con damage per round, half on a save. That's like -1 hp per HD of the enemy. Oh yeah, a spell that does 10-15 hp damage per round is so much better than a spell that does >250 damage per round... lol.
Yean, Cloudkill can kill if enemy Con reaches 0... but considering how buff this game's enemies are, that would take like 15 rounds, or 30 if they succeed on their saves. All the while the enemies are wailing on your party. Whereas a single buffed Scorching Ray can take out the toughest enemy in 1 round, and a buffed Fireball can deal with the minions, leaving your melee to mop up the remains.
In fact, even Stinking Cloud is better than Cloudkill, since it actually makes the enemies lose their action on a failed save, as opposed to merely a few hp worth of damage.
But this is a moot point in any case, since if you're specializing in Evocation either as Wizard or Sorc, it's purely a waste to spend spell slots on any other kind of spells. If you want Cloudkill so much, just have a second caster, e.g. Conjuration-specced, to cast it, and don't waste your fine-tuned DPS machine on that stuff (also on Stinking Cloud, Haste, and other important but non-DPS arcane spells).
And even that is moot, since you get enough spells known to get Haste, Cloudkill, Stinking Cloud and such as secondary/tertiary spells, and use them if the situation so demands, without breaking your DPS build. You don't need to waste a feat on Heighten for that.
No, it's not awesome. Its DPS/DPR (damage per round) ratio is atrocious, and it does not offer any kind of CC. Furthermore, a lot of enemies are Immune to poison and/or Con damage (such as Undead). Its only redeeming quality is SR bypass. Sure, it may have its place in a fight, but only in addition to high DPS spells, not replacing them (unless the fight is so easy your melee can handle it with a few buffs and a Stinking Cloud, in which case Cloudkill is also superfluous).
Having trouble reading? Again, the +60% is compared to Heighten, which adds exactly zero damage for increasing spell level.
And I can see you still haven't offered any spells that actually do more damage than the Empowered/Maximised spells I've listed.
Heighten has NO EFFECT on Spell Penetration, it does not affect your Caster Level in any way.
What the hell are you talking about? Dice averages are standard lingo for both PnP and CRPG. Are you saying that's the first time you heard of it? Have you ever played any D&D?
No, because my calculations are already based on averages, both with regard to base spell damage and extra dice from sneak attack. E.g. 10d6 = 35 average, 52 Empowered, 60 Maximized. Draconic Arcana adds flat 1 per every die rolled, so +10 in this case.
Heighten does NOT affect damage dice in ANY way.
If you're referring to saving throws, Ray spells do not allow them, so Heighten does NOT affect spell damage in this sense as well.
If you're talking about AOE spell saving throws, taking Spell Focus feats is better than Heighten because they increase DC without increasing spell level. And you get enough feats to get all four spell foci for a school/element.
But you're blind to it and using statistic only when it seems to emphasize your build ideas :)
Again, Heighten has NO EFFECT on Spell Penetration. It increases Spell Level, not Caster Level. Are you confusing the two perchance?
As for the DC increase, I've touched upon that on several occasions already. The increase is simply too minor to offset the opportunity costs, and completely irrelevant in case of Ray spells which are a major part of a DPS caster's repertoire.
No, it doesn't. Draconic Arcana still adds +1 per die rolled, including Sneak Attack dice. So it's still efficient. In later game Draconic Arcana bonus damage alone can negate Elemental Resistance, as its bonus damage gets over 30 for each target.
Empower/Maximise increase base spell damage, and even though they do not increase Draconic Arcana bonus, they also do not reduce it.
Again, what the hell are you even talking about? I've given a per-level list of spells twice already. Scorching Ray is great until level 6, when it is replaced by Hellfire Ray. Levels 8 and 9 can be filled with Empowered/Maximized Hellfire Rays (and/or Chain Lightnings or Quickened/Empowered/Maximized Fireballs/Controlled Fireballs). That only leaves level 7 for your Heighten to actually add more Hellfire Rays. But that's at most a 25-30% increase in the total number of Hellfires you can get for spell levels 6 to 9. Not "three times as many Hellfire rays" as you claimed.
Meanwhile, if you only use Heighten, you miss out on the damage boost from Empower/Maximize, so your rays hit for much less damage, dumping your DPR rating.
And if you're also not using Draconic Arcana (I assume you're not, since you appear to not know the first thing about it), then your DPR nosedives again. So much so that your damage output may actually be only half of true DPR potential. And if you also waste spell slots on spells like Cloudkill, Stinking Cloud, Haste and other CC/Buffs, then bad news - you're more support than DPS now.
I'm not, which is why I've been saying Heighten is a wasted feat that a Sorc and even Wizard can't afford.
First off, this thread is about INCREASING SPELL DAMAGE, not "how to be a bard in a sorcerer's shoes".
Second, versatility is only useful for a DPS caster if it boosts his DPS. For everything else you have support casters (who are again better for support because they are specced towards it).
For a DPS caster versatility comes in only a few forms:
1) AOE damage vs. groups, Single target damage vs. boss (covered by AOE spells and Ray spells diversity);
2) Friendly fire/No friendly fire (covered by Ray spells and no FF AOE spells like Chain Lightning)
3) Elemental immunity (covered by spells of different element but same school, like Chain Lightning, and Untyped damage spells, like half of Hellfire).
Everything else is covered by damage boosts, DC boosts, and Spell Pen boosts.
Of course you still cast a few other spells, like Shield/Mirror Image/Blur for personal defense, Sense Vitals for +5d6 SA, and Greater Invisibility for defense and Surprise Spell. But the bulk of your spell slots is devoted to the best DPS spells available, which profit from all your specialisation bonuses. That way you get maximum possible DPR.
Again, this thread is about SPELL DAMAGE, NOT CC. Read the OP.
Also, casting CC is not the task for the DPS caster. It's for the support caster who specialises in the proper schools.
Weakly? LOL. Yeah right. Again you failed to provide any native-level spells that would be better than the ones I've listed, metamagicked. And your Heightened spell doesn't add any damage whatsoever, so it's worse even than the native spells.
*Sigh*, no, you won't, because Empower and Maximise also increase spell level.
Most difficult ones do have a boss. Or several bosses. And it's the difficult ones you have to prepare for, the easy ones will just get mopped up.
That's why as a Sorcerer, you know with SPONTANEOUS CASTING, you can choose when to apply a massive AOE and kill off the minions, and when to focus on a boss with insta-kill Rays.
No, you won't.
Rays don't allow saving throws, so Heighten is useless for at least half your spells, maybe more.
Save-based AOE get so much more damage from Empower/Maximize that it vastly offsets any measly DC increase from Heighten.
You can increase DC by Focusing on a School/Element without increasing spell level.
All of that = no use for Heighten spell.
And once again - Heighten does NOT AFFECT Spell Penetration.
If you're casting Haste with a DPS caster - you're doing it wrong.
If you're casting Haste with Heighten instead of Extend - you're doing it wrong.
If you only have one arcane caster in your party... yeah you're doing it wrong.
And even so, you can still cast Haste effortlessly by a fully specced DPS Sorc: you have 8 (eight) 3rd level spells per day, and later on instead of casting regular Fireballs you may easily use some of these slots for Haste without any need for Heightening. Same for Stinking Cloud, Cloudkill or any other spell: just take is as one of your spells known, and you can cast it if need be.
How can anything be wasted on a Sorcerer with SPONTANEOUS casting? Yes that includes spontaneous metamagic! Have you even played a Sorcerer?
How is Blindness better than say Finger of Death? Both are single target... both require a failed Fort save... the first one blinds... the second one hits for 150 untyped damage. Yeah which one would you choose? LOL.
"A bit more Dex" means a) Maxing Dex at character creation, b) using Vivisectionist Mutagen for +4 Alchemical bonus to Dex, c) using any other buffs/items available to increase ranged touch attack.
No, Human is vastly inferior to Muse-touched Aasimar:
a) it cannot have 20 Dex at start,
b) it doesn't get race bonus to Persuasion,
c) its skill bonus is wasted on a Sorc with dumped Int,
d) it cannot get Wings (since due to AT his Sorc level will be 9 at most)
e) its feat is good but does not outweight a, b, c and d.
Plus Aasimar gets a cool halo.
So what? Not use the best damage spells in game due to a 5% chance of failing? Don't think so.
Name the instance where I ignore average damage.
It doesn't add damage. It only adds a minor DC bonus to spells that allow saving throws. Which has been covered numerous times already.
Dude, you're blowing up your own point. Since Heighten doesn't add damage by itself, and all it does is add the heightened spell level to DC, then how is it any better than your native spells for that level? They already get the same DC as your Heightened spell, and they don't need a wasted feat for it.
So the only thing Heighten actually does is shuffle spells to different spell levels. Empower and Maximise do the same, but with a massive damage boost to boot. And if native level spells are better, as you are saying, then instead of wasting a feat on Heighten you'd better spend it on Spell Focus and get a higher DC bonus.
Do I need to explain how a Maximized Hellfire Ray on an AT build is better than any native 9th level spell? Really? And it's the same for every other level. Metamagicked spells that fully benefit from your spec are better than "native" ones for that level, and if not the "native" ones become the ones you spec in.
Heighten is even worse than native spells for the most part. For the very few spells that are worth shuffling to other levels, Empower and Maximise are better for it than Heighten (also Quicken if you have room for that).
So in short:
Empowered/Maximised Spells in which you spec ("Best in Slot") >> Native spells >> Heightened spells.
No it can't. Rays kill. Stinking Cloud only nauseates. Cloudkill is a long-duration DOT. They cannot replace insta-kill spells. If you can win a fight with only a Stinking Cloud and your melee, that fight wasn't difficult in the first place.
CC/DOTs have their place in combat rotation, sure, but they are better cast by support casters. Those who actually spec for these spells (e.g. by taking Spell Focus: Conjuration). As a DPS caster, you have only one task: killing.
And yeah, just to blow your point out of the water even further: Cloudkill can be Empowered and Maximized (at least it could be in PnP, can't say I checked in game due to how wasteful it would be).
Well in that case... what's the use of Heighen spell? Really, you've been hoisted with your own petard... for the umpteenth time.
*Sigh*... Empower can push your Fireballs to level 5, leaving room for Haste at level 3...
But why would you want to waste slots on buffs like Haste and debuffs like SC and Slow on a DPS Sorc?
Why not use an actual support caster who specialises in Conjuration and Transmutation? He will get higher DCs for CC spells than you due to proper Spell Focus, and he can take better Metamagic feats like Extend Spell.
By burdening your DPS Sorc with support tasks, you cut heavily into his DPS potential. In the end, he ends up both an inferior buffer and an inferior damager. In short, a failure.
Once again, name the 5th level spell that does more single target damage than a Maximised Scorching Ray. Or a 9th level spell that does more single target damage than a Maximised Hellfire Ray or more AOE damage than a Maximised Chain Lightning. Or whatever native spell for whatever level from the list I've provided.
You've got no idea what you're talking about. I've given you numbers, and you've given nothing except references to buffs and CC spells that are not the topic of the discussion.
"Very few chances" = its base DC is at the spell level you can cast, at the cost of a feat? LOL. Better just use the native spell and spend that feat on Spell Focus, your chances will be better.
And again you're just empty talk, how about you actually name the low-level disable spells that would gain so much by Heightening... But Wait, CC spells are Not the Topic of this Discussion, Aren't They?
9-10 feats what? Sorcerer gets 11 feats base, not counting possible racial bonus. That is enough for the most important feats, but NOT enough for useless feats like Heighten. You simply cannot afford to waste a feat on that crap.
No, you don't need Skill Focus. As a Sorc you have only 1 (one) skill to pump, and that's Persuasion. It is a Class skill for Sorcerers, it gets a Racial bonus from Muse-touched Aasimar, and it benefits from the Sorc's over-the-top Charisma. There is absolutely no need to also waste an entire feat for a +3 bonus.
Ohoho, now that's an argument! jeez...
Again, you get 11 feats (eleven) as a Sorc/AT, 10 from levels and 1 from class (on first level). That is enough for Empower, Maximize, and those other 9 feats.
Literally, what are you even talking about? That you're not able to reach max level in this game with a full party? That is well known and a break of the Kickstarter promise (to have an extra chapter that brought players to level 20). Does that have any bearing on the topic of ways to increase spell damage? No it does not. Does it stop from building level 20 characters? No it does not. Does it make Heighten a worthwhile feat? No it does not: in fact, with less available feats Heighten faces a fiercer competition and has even less chances to make it into a DPS build.
Actually, "Spell-Wise" there's the massive difference of... the majority of PF spells not EXISTING in this game, as well as the majority of prestige classes, feats, abilities etc. There's also the difference in creature stats, classes, archetypes, and yes a number of spells too (Greater Shout anyone?). This makes pure DPS casters like Vivi/Sorcerer/AT the top dogs in this game, whereas in PnP they were mid-runners at best.
So yeah, saying "it's great in PnP so it must be great here" instead of actually checking it in game is getting you nowhere.