Cleave - is it cleave + your Full Attack, or cleave or your full attack?

[markelphoenix]

So, cleave reads that it is a 'Standard action' What I am wondering, is If i have a fighter, whose Base Attack Score gives him 3 Attacks in a Round, if I activate cleave instead, will I only attack once if I don't meet the cleave condition?

This starts seeming like a trap if that is the case. Either, choose to go with your normal multi attack, or take a cleave that may or may not trigger. I guess the trade off is you're doing it at your Full Attack Bonus instead of diminishing bonuses of the extra attacks?

[Autocthon]

Originally posted by SoundofSilence:

For characters with high bab cleave is worthless. However, cleave is a prerequisite for improved cleaving finish which gives you free attacks after killing an enemy.

Edit: to be clear, regular cleave is a standard action ability which means it takes a full round and you lose any other attacks you could of made that round.

Note that Cleave is worthless but Great Cleave isn't complete trash. It's basically free "kill lots of trash enemies" o na toggle.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Autocthon:

Originally posted by SoundofSilence:

For characters with high bab cleave is worthless. However, cleave is a prerequisite for improved cleaving finish which gives you free attacks after killing an enemy.

Edit: to be clear, regular cleave is a standard action ability which means it takes a full round and you lose any other attacks you could of made that round.

Note that Cleave is worthless but Great Cleave isn't complete trash. It's basically free "kill lots of trash enemies" o na toggle.

And Cleave can be decent if you get it early, before you get a second attack per round.

The entire line of feats is best used on a Fighter or at least on a character with Fighter levels though. Otherwise you might not have enough feats for more important things.

[wendigo211]

Cleave itself isn't that good unless you only have 1 APR. Great Cleave could be useful if you can use it to spread some effects around. E.g. you could pair it with Cornugeon Smash or there's a heavy mace that gives you a stacking +1 to AC for the remainder of combat the first time you hit an opponent. There might be a few other effect on hit weapons that could be effective with great cleave.

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Originally posted by markelphoenix:

So, cleave reads that it is a 'Standard action' What I am wondering, is If i have a fighter, whose Base Attack Score gives him 3 Attacks in a Round, if I activate cleave instead, will I only attack once if I don't meet the cleave condition?

This starts seeming like a trap if that is the case. Either, choose to go with your normal multi attack, or take a cleave that may or may not trigger. I guess the trade off is you're doing it at your Full Attack Bonus instead of diminishing bonuses of the extra attacks?

As others pointed out; Cleave isn't great after you start getting iterative attacks (although it can still be useful if you have to run to get into melee since then you'd only get one attack anyway) but Great Cleave is pretty good if there's fodder to get out of the way.

But your initial reading of "standard action" is correct. Every round in Pathfinder a character has three actions - a standard action, a move action, and a swift action. You can combine the standard and move actions into a full-round action - and a full attack, the only way to get your iterative attacks after your Base Attack Bonus gets high enough, is a kind of full-round action.

So if you have to use your move action for something else (like for getting into melee or because you're charging) then Cleave can still be useful after you start getting iterative attacks, but once you're in melee and getting your full attack actions off then it loses out.

[erikem]

Well if you are counting on greater finishing cleave then you are talking about tons of trash monsters and in my opinion it's easier to kill 'em with a fireball than spending 4 feats on your fighter.

[markelphoenix]

So, if not going cleave route, alternative suggestions for two handed weapon fighter?

[FlagrantCrazy]

Originally posted by markelphoenix:

So, if not going cleave route, alternative suggestions for two handed weapon fighter?

Doesn't two hand fighter get bonuses for disarm and sunder attacks, so it could be worth going down that path.

Weapon focus/specialization and improved crit are usually good picks too if you want to stick with a single weapon type

[NotsoevilDM]

Note that the cleave should be at full attack bonus, whereas iterative attacks have -5 per additional attack. My main tactic with cleave was to use it on mobs rather than the big bad, hopefully hitting the mob and cleaving at full AB into the boss (or one of his buddies).

Given the very high ACs of some monsters in this game, your iterative attacks are pretty much guaranteed to miss, so taking a chance on getting a second strike at full AB was sometimes worth it.

[bkgamingacc]

Great Cleave vs Normal attacks for 40% hit chance with 3 attacks against 3 targets.

3 normal attacks at 40% getting -5 BAB with each following attack, 15%, 5% ( natural 20 is always a hit) ends up getting
42% no hits
51% 1 hit
6% 2 hits
1% 3 hits

Great Cleave at 40% hit chance gets
60% no hits
24% 1 hit
9.5% 2 hits
6.5% 3 hits.

Cleave only gets the upper hand if you have very very high hit chance or only through lvls 1 to 5 when you one base attack
Moreover to make use of cleave effectively you need reach weapons that have lesser dmg.
And need more then 3 targets in threat range not to mention you need to invest 4 features.
Also is terrible against mirror imaged or displaced targets

Originally posted by NotsoevilDM:

Given the very high ACs of some monsters in this game, your iterative attacks are pretty much guaranteed to miss, so taking a chance on getting a second strike at full AB was sometimes worth it.

This is exactly why you shouldnt use cleave.
Your iterative attacks have the chance the roll natural 20s. %5 chance always.
Vs High AC targets you ll need to roll 19 and 20s anyway.

10% Hit chance cleave gets 90% miss, 9% 1 hit, 1% 2 hits
10% Hit chance 3 normal attack gets 81% miss 18%1 hit , 1% 2 hits

[rakshasa72]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

Cleave itself isn't that good unless you only have 1 APR. Great Cleave could be useful if you can use it to spread some effects around. E.g. you could pair it with Cornugeon Smash or there's a heavy mace that gives you a stacking +1 to AC for the remainder of combat the first time you hit an opponent. There might be a few other effect on hit weapons that could be effective with great cleave.

I tried cornugeon smash but, I think that Dreadful Carnage is better.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by markelphoenix:

So, if not going cleave route, alternative suggestions for two handed weapon fighter?

Vital Strike seems ideal. You basically roll your weapon damage twice at the highest attack value(but only get the strength and power attack modifier once).

Same deal with the better version(Improved or Greater, cant remember), where you roll your weapon dice 3 times(and 4?), then add modifiers.
This works great with one of the early Two-Handed Fighter class feats, that gives you double strength damage bonus on the first attack per round.

As I said, you wont attack often, but you will hit very hard and at your best attack value, so it is great against tougher opponents with a lot of DR(damage reduction). Cleave/Greater Cleave is for "trash", that might as well get killed by AoE spells or standard attacks.

IF you play a Fighter, consider only going as far as Cleaving Finish(2 feats, allows you to make 1 "free" attack when you land a killing blow) or maybe Greater Cleave(3 feats), if you want the character to be the "garbage man".
Greater Cleaving Finish(the last feat of the line) will very rarely worth it, since it will be extremely situational to make constant "killing blows" with 1 chain of attacks.
Better to take Outflank/Seize the Moment instead, IMO.

[everrett01]

Choice of feats is always about build. If most of your tohit comes from BAB then cleave is questionable. However if you are getting most of it from a max str build, or a class ability, then cleave begins to pay dividends.

The other example where it begins to make sense is if you have a melee debuff build. If you take a rogue(thug) with Shatter Defenses and Cornugon Smash that character can trash the effectiveness of an entire group of powerful opponents. Enlarge and Lunge are very helpful here.

[bkgamingacc]

Originally posted by everrett01:

Choice of feats is always about build. If most of your tohit comes from BAB then cleave is questionable. However if you are getting most of it from a max str build, or a class ability, then cleave begins to pay dividends.

Care to explain how any source of to hit ( max str, feats ) applies to cleave and not to normal attacks ?
If you have less then 75% hit chance and surrounded by at least 3 mobs cleave line always scores less hits.
75% hit chance is only possible in low difficulties and vs trash mobs that are no threat anyway.
Cleave is a big trap.

[everrett01]

Just off the top of my head:
Sorc lvl 1, Alchemist lvl 4, Fighter lvl 3, Dragon Disciple lvl 4 could have a Str of 20 +2lvl +4 mut, +6enh, +4 DD, +2 Rage, +2 size = 40str

That would be a tohit of 9Bab +15str, +1 wpn focus, +5 enhancement

I haven't hit level 12 in this game but would be surprised if most monsters had an AC above 35 even on higher difficulties. If AC's are higher then we can also look at supporing Bard or Cleric buffs to push tohit higher.

[Sima Marlin]

Originally posted by everrett01:

Just off the top of my head:
Sorc lvl 1, Alchemist lvl 4, Fighter lvl 3, Dragon Disciple lvl 4 could have a Str of 20 +2lvl +4 mut, +6enh, +4 DD, +2 Rage, +2 size = 40str

That would be a tohit of 9Bab +15str, +1 wpn focus, +5 enhancement

I haven't hit level 12 in this game but would be surprised if most monsters had an AC above 35 even on higher difficulties.

Highest I met on normal was 64.. on a dog ( not joking, a dog).

But that dog was polymorphed naga from Pitax palace in third last chapter so.. yeah. ( It literally jumped it's ac from 51 I think to 64 since I landed baleful poly on it), I spend literally 8 minutes swinging at DOG with 1 on all mental stats that didn't fight back as I was out of spells.


Also to the STR math, you can get +8 str gear so add +2 to the ench, there's ring that gives circumstance bonus to str ( bugged but when fixed)..), there's spell called Legendary proprotions ( wiz lv 7), that gives + 6 SIZE modifier to str ( so stacks), There are also cleric spells ( personal though) that if you could get as scroll ( not sure if possible) can give you sacred or profine bonus to str.

So absolute max might be ( based on your math and what I know) : 50 ish ? str + of course class level ups.


And I know I am streatching here but 5 levels of ranger ( or the wand ) for leaden blades and legendary proportions would possibly give you +3 size classes to attack damage ..