House at the End of Time Feedback, Horrible game design (Spoilers)

[juanrdp]

I'm currently at half the House at the End of Time and the design it's the worst i could imagine in the whole game, it's a full compendium of design flawn all inside the same map.

First glaring omission, if you enter with "story" companion you start alone in the map, but if you comes with adventurers you start with the full group..,
how could you balance the dificulty from a group size from one character to six? short answer you cannot, and it's not done.

Second, the start point seems random (or i didn't catch the logic behind it), from the layout you could get very dificult encounters before you could get companions back... with two or three characters and lacking fundamental skills (for example magic), that makes the encounters just imposible.

Third, several companions die from decision that you take on previous quest. Join that with that it's easy to miss some companion quest due time constraints (far away from throne when show), bugs (Tristian) or player roleplaying decisions (after all this is not a rpg long ago but a tactical mini-maxin one).. that left you with a less than optimal group, maybe with underequiped companions on party if you need choose not usual companions to cover dead ones, companions that could be of lower level (if not shared xp active), with valuable (probably some of yor best) equipment being lost on died characters...

Not to forget that several of those companions are the kingdom advisors... lovely half the kingdom council vanished is a puff of blood....

.. and the worse all of them without a single posible reaction by the player, at this point all is set in stone without any previous warning. This is really frustrating because it remove any choosing from the player in spite of the history drama.

You couldn't do a single thing at this point to change the outcome outside start a new game.

Wonderfull choice.

Btw. lovely how a died character exploded by her goodness killed one of my advisors.... and was latter alive in the room but no available ... wtf... I known, i known.. my decisions of 50 hours ago set into stone that a character need to die and no goodness exploding people is good enought to avoit it xD

More on detail of the encounters i could imagine that there is a logic behind the phase changes and the two houses, the problem it that in one of the houses the combat are the closest thing you could find to imposible (on Normal the Wild Hunts are just an excercise of frustration, two or three most).
But when you need to phase change to advance the missions it's just... phase change->encounter tons of Wild Hunts->die->reload->try other way not phase changing...

On the "actual" phase, ok several enemies, all with drain, aoe spells all with drain... see that fly also drain stats!!!, It's fun to see some drains and but when it's just the "bring 100 scrolls to avoid camp each few combats" is just a cheap mechanic.

Then you switch to the "original" phase, tons and tons of Wild Hunts... that are like the following
Encounter start: Initiative:
- Wild Hunts Monarch win with a 38 initiative roll...what!!!, you see the roll a 18+20 modifier....
..wait, wait a sec, ¿Wild Hunts Monarch? let me chek CR19, ok nice combat for a level 14-16 group
Wild Hunt Scout win with 34 !!wait, wait!!! a CR19 AND a CR15 enemies on the same combat against a lv16 group?
... after two Wild Hunt Scouts, and another two Wild Hunt Archers (CR13) more yo are thinking !!what the hell the designer is smoking, i want it!!!

Quick calcs: CR19+2xCr15+2xCr13 is rougtly a CR20-21 equivalent a deadly encounter for a ¿6? (at best) supposely lv14-16 chars ... ok... nice.... and this encounter are not the capstone of a campaing... just trash encountres...

A 20 modifier to initiative, ok, lets chek, because the Monarch in my book have a +11;:
Monarch stat: Dex 25 -> +7, Improved Initiative (+4) ->+11, "Normal" dificulty +3 (+2 and +1 double dip from dex) -> +14, Wild Hunt Link (+4) -> 18, ¿Maybe a prelaunched Cat's Grace? +2->20.. ok the maths are ok, but the last +2 is weird.

Ok, that's +5 over the usual value... we have a nice start.

Start the combat...
Gaze attack, ¿DC30s? -> paralized for over a minute
Then ranged touch atacks for 3d6+4d6 due being paralized... nice... that's a wonderfull design as a min-maxer i would not do better myself nice character killing mechanic.

Weird things, gaze is usually 30 feet i check and was outside the ranged of a back-line caster's firestorm (260 feet range...) how in hell could that caster get paralized? Gaze attacks with 300 ft range?

No line of sight?, its the same, you are also paralyzed.. damm a gaze attack that seems to turn corners....

I would need to check in house but i think that i have several chars with WIll saves close to 30 (yes i known..) ... it's the same, because all of them ended paralized in few rows. I will try to parse a combat to get a clear picture, but my first bet is that Wild Hunt Scout gaze do not get inmmunity from a save, it's ok for a Monarch but not for a Scout.

Ok, i pass those combat, and slowly y continue to reach a ¿dinning room? ... if you are in the "wrong" phase you need to fight close to 10 or 12 Wild Hunts... seriously why the game just don't make a TPK as soon as i make the plane shift and show the load screen.. it would be faster and relief me from the pain.

Seriously some designer think you could pass with a lv16 party a CR 23 encounter?, Do any designer knowns how the CR works?.. an EPIC encounter is APL+3 and you are in the APL +6!!!!

Ok, just a couple of things more, the bosses... AC50 enemy, that could buff himself into the heaven (shield spell first, ¿Frightful Aspect? second, protection auras third... to reach AC in the range of 70's) and heal himself each few rounds with 150 points heals.

Nice... you need magic or you are screw... god luck on the party composition.

Best part.. on second try (with a mercenary full group) the boss don't even attack and just get blasted while buffing himself .... by 4 casters massed spells (Hellfire Rays, Flame Strikes and Scorching Ray ... damm 3xrays and each one sneak damage ... pfff..), seems that the game likes to penalize balanced parties and just love the min-maxers by putting mechanics that favour the abuse of rules...

to be continued....

[tru-]

100% agree, this map is just tedious and boring, even if you are a spellcaster. Every mob just immune to everything (mass ice prison/finger of death/disintegrate/sirocco/fire damage/acid damage/lightning damage) does nothing to these hordes of plant golems. When i played nwn and nwn2 high level sorc was an artillery and very fun to play especially against regular encounters, in this game when you are 16-18 level and every mob is 35+ level and successfully rolls any roll possible i just do not feel any fun at all

[=[NK]= Col. Jack O'Neil]

There's a mod to remove the overused gaze mechanic

[InEffect]

Originally posted by =NK= Col. Jack O'Neil:

There's a mod to remove the overused gaze mechanic

Why? The game gives a ton of options to negate them. People just whine for no reason cause they have to press a button once an hour.

[=[NK]= Col. Jack O'Neil]

So you think it's a good design choice to force the player to take valuable feats, to completely negate a mechanic they have used in too many places?

It would be better to utilise it less, so that it's not mandatory.

[=[NK]= Col. Jack O'Neil]

That was rhetorical. I don't really care what you think about owlcats implementation.

[InEffect]

Don't need the feats for it.

[juanrdp]

Nice necro... the thread was 2 years old.

It's a pain in the guts to see that owlcats didn't have the "time" to fix what could be a wonderfull game by lettign the end-game encunters being a frustration excercise...

At least i didn't find anyting remotely like this in WOTR....

[vitorbauml2]

I find this part of the game the worst by far, it's just boring, repetitive enemies, etc.

[Babbles]

I suggest you don't play any Mass Effect games. Or Witcher games. Or any games with consequence.

Okay I am just laughing at you now :)

[Babbles]

Originally posted by juanrdp:

Nice necro... the thread was 2 years old.

It's a pain in the guts to see that owlcats didn't have the "time" to fix what could be a wonderfull game by lettign the end-game encunters being a frustration excercise...

At least i didn't find anyting remotely like this in WOTR....

"Nice Necro" call out, then responds? WTF?

HOTEOT isn't then end, FYI :)

[=[NK]= Col. Jack O'Neil]

Might be a necro, but still completely relevant after all this time

[juanrdp]

Originally posted by Babbles:

"Nice Necro" call out, then responds? WTF?

Maybe i answer because it's sad, very sad that what could be a wonderfull experience and game get ruined in the final part by a single terrible design choice and what i found incredible that after TWO YEARS it isn't fixed.

The game could be vastly superior if that single choice is fixed, and sinceresly y supposed long time ago that it WAS fixed.... that it was after two years it's both incredible and sad... "sadly incredible xD"

[dr.rosenrosen]

Originally posted by juanrdp:

Originally posted by Babbles:

"Nice Necro" call out, then responds? WTF?

Maybe i answer because it's sad, very sad that what could be a wonderfull experience and game get ruined in the final part by a single terrible design choice and what i found incredible that after TWO YEARS it isn't fixed.

The game could be vastly superior if that single choice is fixed, and sinceresly y supposed long time ago that it WAS fixed.... that it was after two years it's both incredible and sad... "sadly incredible xD"

the fact it is such a great game in spite of bugcat making a mess of several things including the house actually gives me hope.

i'd be interested in what people thought was a good rpg ending... da:o? the first kotor (kotor 2 was beyond awful after such a strong game)...

i mean i love the bg games but no...nwn hotu? .. i am not sure of any i found great.

[LoneEagle]

Okay, so this is my first time through the game and I just made it to the House. I read some reviews saying it was a bad ending and tedious so I guess I am prepared. Thought about just quitting the game after reading the reviews, but would like to finish at least once first before moving on to the next game.

I thought the trader next to the well had some pretty cool items for sale. When I entered the house I ran into a pretty difficult battle where I died. There were 5-6 ghost guards and a ghost mage and I was alone. If I reload I could maybe win if I spent several minutes pre-buffing and using potions and scrolls and summons but instead I decided to avoid and go upstairs. So I ended up getting Valerie, my Mastodon animal companion, and Tristian all back. So now with these 4 in my party the enemies are much easier. Whenever I find the rest of my party I shouldn't have too much to worry about. I am playing on normal and my dudes are pretty powerful and all level 17. We'll see if I can make it to the Lantern King...

[gronkinator]

Originally posted by corlandom:

Originally posted by juanrdp:

Maybe i answer because it's sad, very sad that what could be a wonderfull experience and game get ruined in the final part by a single terrible design choice and what i found incredible that after TWO YEARS it isn't fixed.

The game could be vastly superior if that single choice is fixed, and sinceresly y supposed long time ago that it WAS fixed.... that it was after two years it's both incredible and sad... "sadly incredible xD"

the fact it is such a great game in spite of bugcat making a mess of several things including the house actually gives me hope.

i'd be interested in what people thought was a good rpg ending... da:o? the first kotor (kotor 2 was beyond awful after such a strong game)...

i mean i love the bg games but no...nwn hotu? .. i am not sure of any i found great.

The first Icewind Dale was pretty great. Which sort of goes to show the issues that OP is complaining about; the gameplay isn't really significantly different from a game that came out 2 decades ago. People have known how to make great crpgs for a while. There are some things that this game does great at, but there are others that are just blah.