FIX THIS! Sneak Attack and Flanking Breaks the Game

[hannibal]

I am disappointed that the developers broke their own game by making it so easy to Sneak Attack and Flank opponents. I am so pissed I have to banish Octavia from my party and I just decided to respec to remove any outflanking feats in my party. I will purge theifs in the party.

This ♥♥♥♥ is broken, and shame on the devs for ruining an excellent game with such a bad implementation.

They did a great job in being faithful to pathfinder but this seems like they just got lazy in the end.

And for those who enjoy it. What is the fun in cheating? Even if enemy AI can flank easily they always go for your tank. This makes the game too easy and I'm playing on Challenging.

[Snuptik]

read the discription of flanking, sneak attack etc. it is on purpose. Sneak attack https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/#TOC-Sneak-Attack and flank https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-Flanking its all after the rules and even in the pen and paper it is that easy.

[Zaltys]

Nothing to fix. Getting sneak attacks in pnp is just as easy (unless you're playing badly).

[[TGC] MadGod]

Originally posted by Zaltys:

Nothing to fix. Getting sneak attacks in pnp is just as easy (unless you're playing badly).

Lol..no it isn't. Unless all your opponents have an int of 2.

[Riftwalker]

Originally posted by QQ Snuptik:

read the discription of flanking, sneak attack etc. it is on purpose. Sneak attack https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/#TOC-Sneak-Attack and flank https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-Flanking its all after the rules and even in the pen and paper it is that easy.

to be clear, to get flanking in this, you basically just need 2 be threatening the same guy, angles or being on the other side don't appear to matter. so i can flank without trying to break the enemy melee line for instance. generally it's fairly easy to break flanking in pnp, especially if you have multiple allies who will protect your flank.

rogues are considered bad for a reason, and that's because you'll rarelky get a fullk attack sneak going off unless the enemy is willingly letting themselves be flanked repeatedly. anyone who says flanking is easy obviously doesn't fight a GM who uses combat maneuvers or withdraw actions or acrobatics to avoid aoo as much as players do. and if you delay turns, so can the enemies.

[FullmetalWinry]

rogues are considered bad for a reason, and that's because you'll rarelky get a fullk attack sneak going off unless the enemy is willingly letting themselves be flanked repeatedly. anyone who says flanking is easy obviously doesn't fight a GM who uses combat maneuvers or withdraw actions or acrobatics to avoid aoo as much as players do.

I have played PnP for a long time, including being a DM, and if there is one thing I've learned is that always going against the players build is a really, really big ♥♥♥♥ move, and you'll lose your players fast. What I mean is, if one of your players is playing a paladin, and you only send him against mindless neutral enemies (i.e. animals and other beasts), then you're a ♥♥♥♥. Throw him a few undead and demons his way so he can have fun with his full abilities. A player is focusing on fire spells? (elemental focus, fire bloodlines, etc.) Don't send him fire resistent or immune ennemies, let him mow down 10 target at a time with a fireball every now and then. Another character is focusing on enchantments and want to use Dominate Person and similar spells? Then if you don't send him humanoid opponents his way now and again, you're a ♥♥♥♥.

The same goes for rogues. If you have a rogue player, that focuses on sneak attacks (with his archetype and rogue talents etc.) and you do everything in your power so that he never gets a sneak attack in, with high perception on the enemy or, as you say, with constant "combat maneuvers or withdraw actions or acrobatics", then guess what, you're a ♥♥♥♥. And you won't keep your players entertained long. A DM doing that is the only reason you think rogues are bad.

[FullmetalWinry]

On another note, however, I agree that ranged sneak attacks on flanked targets is a bad design choice. It goes against the way it works in PnP. The PnP sneak attack rules states that to get a flanking sneak attack, the rogue must be the one flanking the target: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/#TOC-Sneak-Attack "when the rogue flanks her target". And it's only possible to flank in melee.

I agree with the way they made flanking in the game tho, simply by having two characters attack the same target in melee, since there is no grid and 5 foot steps in the game.

[[TGC] MadGod]

While it is true that flanking is only able to be done in melee, a rogue also sneak attacks each time the opponent is denied their dex towards the rogue, also at range.

My ranged rogues on paper have improved feint and later, greater feint. That makes the enemy's dex bonus disappear, but the ranged rogues are much weaker than my melee ones, but go squish less often. Since feinting is not in game...well.

[My Name is Mud]

This is the thing you think ruined this game?

Man, wait until you actually get out of chapter one and have to play it.

[J4n1]

Denying someone the use of their class abilities by metagaming your encounters is a ♥♥♥♥ move yes, but a rogue should not expect to be able to make their every attack a sneak attack.
Intelligent enemies will take steps to avoid being stabbed in the back, some enemies can't be sneak attacked against.

Sneak attack should be very effective when you get it off, but you should not expect it to something that happens 90% of the time.
This game hands out sneak attacks like candy, almost every fight, almost every attack, will be a sneak attack if you have the ability to do sneak attacks.

[IKerensky]

Flanking IS too powerfull. Wich make Vivi 1 a required dip in every and all meta power build.
Ranged flanking do exist in PnP but it is much more restricted in range (and cover malus that aren’t in game).
In PnP, flanking is just one of the option to get sneak attacking and not the best, easiest. Removing ennemy dex bonus by debuff and manoeuvers or using invis is much more powerful,
But flanking is this game should be tuned down, and the feats/classes that benefit too much for it too.

[FullmetalWinry]

Originally posted by J4n1:

Denying someone the use of their class abilities by metagaming your encounters is a ♥♥♥♥ move yes, but a rogue should not expect to be able to make their every attack a sneak attack.
Intelligent enemies will take steps to avoid being stabbed in the back, some enemies can't be sneak attacked against.

Sneak attack should be very effective when you get it off, but you should not expect it to something that happens 90% of the time.
This game hands out sneak attacks like candy, almost every fight, almost every attack, will be a sneak attack if you have the ability to do sneak attacks.

As I said before, I agree that ranged sneak attacks are way too easy in this game and a bad design choice. I would want the rogues to get in melee range to get that flanking bonus themselves, as it should be. But since there is no grid, and no feints, I think the way they made flanking is a good middle ground. Just remove ranged flanking.

Also I noticed in the game that you can't sneak barbarians through flanking, so they implemented uncanny dodge correctly, which is nice.

Finally as DM I don't give out free sneak attacks constantly, my point was to let it happen every now and then, especially if the rogue works hard and puts himself in danger to make it happen. Also depends on what opponent they face, most humanoids will actively try not to get backstabbed, but a troll will not.

[Frank Hardly]

As a rogue if you're focused on SA damage then you should carry the tools on you to get a sneak attack off, all you need is some concealement to attempt a hide check and set up a round of sneak attacks. I do agree its a little overtuned in this game but to make up for it they give half the enemies barbarian levels to negate your SA. Seriously every animal in the stolen lands is an awakened barbarian its nuts. Late game you also run into an entire host of enemies sporting their own sneak attack cheese so you get to be on the receiving end.

[Fendelphi]

I havent really played around sneak attack much in this game. During a round, does every attack become a sneak attack from a rogue(or what ever) or only the first hit in that round?
Because in some iterations of DnD, it was only the first hit in a round that could be a sneak attack.
Also, sneak attacks cant crit(or atleast were not supposed to) in some iterations(the attack itself can crit but the sneak attack damage is added in the end, not as part of the crit). If the sneak attack damage is multiplied, no wonder it feels broken(I do not know if this is the case in this game. As I said, I havent really used sneak attack based characters).

If every attack in a round becomes a sneak attack, and gets multiplied by crits, then that needs to change.

[FullmetalWinry]

Originally posted by IKerensky:

Ranged flanking do exist in PnP but it is much more restricted in range (and cover malus that aren’t in game).

Could you please tell me how? The only thing I could find was this feat:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/combat-feats/ranged-flank-combat/
and surprise, it's third party.

[FullmetalWinry]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

If every attack in a round becomes a sneak attack, and gets multiplied by crits, then that needs to change.

That's not the problem, this is correct in game, only the first attack out of stealth will be a sneak, and it doesn't crit.

The problem is that you get your sneak attack bonus on flanked targets, even if you are not the one doing the flanking. This allows a rogue to continuously sneak attack his target from range as long as he has two allies attacking the same target in melee, and it goes against PnP rules.