Cleave is it good still?

[(OTG)tonyhsloanejr(Gae'len Fade]

I am more experienced with 3.5 and below and I've been a 2e dungeon master for 20 years but some of the things in 5th edition are a little bit different so I want to make sure before I take these Feats that they're similar to the way they used to work for your front line melee.
Cleave and great cleave used to be awesome are they still?

[KOHb]

Using cleave does not give you to make more than 1 attack per round. Even with great positioning don't think tha you'll make more then 3-4 attach per round with great cleave. At price of 2 feats!

While under haste with high BaB you make a lot attacks, focusing your target. With attack penalty, but you may use those 2 feats wasted for cleave.

[rakshasa72]

It can be pretty good if you get the right positioning. Using a reach weapon helps but, even better is to use Enlarge Person or the like to increase size.

[Sotanaht]

I believe Cleave is significantly different in PF than 3.5. In PF Cleave is a standard action attack allowing you to make one attack, and then one additional attack against a different target if the first attack hits. Generally in combat you want to make full attacks whenever possible, so Cleave is limited in use to only when you expect a full attack to be overkill or when you need to move and attack. In RTWP gameplay it's even less useful because you would have to manually be toggling it every turn when needed, and you don't want to micromanage at that level.

Cleaving Finish is more like what Cleave used to be, automatically allowing you to make an extra attack if you kill a target, then Improved Cleaving Finish is what Great Cleave was, allowing you to make unlimited attacks if you kill a target each time. Both have regular Cleave as a prereq.

In my opinion, this feat chain is not worth taking in this game. Cleave itself is trash, Cleaving Finish is OK but if things are already dying you probably don't really need the extra attacks anyway, it won't help you on the really tough enemies.

[(OTG)tonyhsloanejr(Gae'len Fade]

Thanks for the input guys now what are your feelings on the improved sneak attack feat? This is new as well

[climbingeastofwinter]

Cleave and Cleaving Finish are just gateway feats to Great Cleave and Improved Cleaving Finish, which are pretty good for clearing out swarms of trash monsters. For single targets, I'd rather have Outflank and Combat Reflexes + Seize the Moment, on my front line melee types, as both of those teamwork feats [ Outflank and Seize the Moment (which requires Combat Reflexes) ] provide ways of generating extra attacks of opportunity for nearby allies during a fight.

[Morgian]

Pursuing cleave is costly in feats, as climbingeastofwinter wrote. You will also need reach to make the most of it, which can be gained from some 2H weapons, enlarge, righteous might, or the legendary size spell. If you have also combat reflexes and the DEX bonus to actually get additional AoOs, I imagine it should work well against the groups in later chapters...there are a few good weapons to be found which increase the reach even more.
The basic feat by itself is useful only at low levels, when you don't get multiple attacks, because in that case you get two attacks instead of one, albeit against two different targets. Unless you plan to go the whole way, better leave it alone.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by (OTG)tonyhsloanejr(Gae'len Fade:

Thanks for the input guys now what are your feelings on the improved sneak attack feat? This is new as well

Accomplished Sneak Attacker you mean? If it applies to you you probably want it. It only applies to multiclass characters with either rogue or vivisectionist levels, or I suppose Eldrich Scoundrels but that's a pretty awful class. Sneak attacks in this game are easy to use, so it's basically 1d6 extra damage, which is way more than feats usually grant. Precise strikes is the same and anyone, even full rogues can take it, but I think it only applies to melee.

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

Cleave isnt automatic anymore you have to activate it, but FINISHING cleave is basically the old 3.5 cleave, so takes 2 feats now. On the upside... great cleave is basically a spamable aoe attack =3

[ShroudedInLight]

Accomplished Sneak Attacker can only be taken once, and is useful mainly for sneaking into Eldritch Scoundrel early on Octavia and other such characters.

As for Cleave, I've had some success with it on Amari who I've built into a murder machine with Improved Cleaving Finish. As far as using Great Cleave, It is best placed upon the person designated to draw aggro so they have the most people surrounding them. Valerie can do a decent job with it, but it can also be used if you have someone fast like a Monk or Amari run around behind the tank and get into a position to hit multiple people.

Most fights in this game are against several opponents, but obviously Cleave will be useless against single large foes.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by AzureTheGamerKobold:

Cleave isnt automatic anymore you have to activate it, but FINISHING cleave is basically the old 3.5 cleave, so takes 2 feats now. On the upside... great cleave is basically a spamable aoe attack =3

Great cleave only works if you hit every attack though. One miss and the rest of your attacks are ruined. Combined with how situational it is, it's really just not worth the effort. You'll probably do more damage with a full attack and the more likely that is to NOT be true, the more likely whatever your facing isn't really a threat anyway.

Originally posted by Cousin Okri:

Accomplished Sneak Attacker can only be taken once, and is useful mainly for sneaking into Eldritch Scoundrel early on Octavia and other such characters.

Arcane Trickster you mean. Accomplished Sneak Attacker IS good for getting Arcane Trickster with rogue 1, wizard 3, but it's also good just by itself provided you have any non-rogue levels. 1d6 extra sneak attack damage, at least in this game where basically all your attacks will be sneak attacks, is worth a feat on anyone who can use it. It basically makes up for a dip off of rogue, letting you keep max sneak attack damage, or else adds a noticeable damage boost to anyone who dips into rogue.

Eldrich Scoundrel is an awful rogue archetype that's basically a wannabe arcane trickster without any of what makes arcane trickster good. You get spells and sneak attacks, but actually manage to end up with lower level/worse spells AND weaker sneak attacks and you lose the class features unique to AT in exchange for a few extra rogue talents/feats, which you get less of than a regular rogue including no advanced talents ever.

[Shadenuat]

My guess you have to maximize single attack damage for Cleave, stuff like vital strike or overhead chop, but idk if there are builds that can really make it worth it as it is now in the game.

[Trip]

I am building a 2H Reach Fighter4 Vivisectionist 16. Only to level 6 right now.

Sneak attack damage will be applied to each target of cleave that is flanked. So you can kick out some pretty wicked damage. It takes ALLOT of feats cuz you also want outflank and combat reflexes so there are much better single target DPS options.

It does spread out big damage in the right situations, cleaves are made much better with reach weapons and enlarge.

Im sticking with the medium armour and fighter for armour training. You have to move him allot to maximise the potential targets but you can often have him reach every target in melee from behind valerie as well.

[(OTG)tonyhsloanejr(Gae'len Fade]

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Originally posted by (OTG)tonyhsloanejr(Gae'len Fade:

Thanks for the input guys now what are your feelings on the improved sneak attack feat? This is new as well

Accomplished Sneak Attacker you mean? If it applies to you you probably want it. It only applies to multiclass characters with either rogue or vivisectionist levels, or I suppose Eldrich Scoundrels but that's a pretty awful class. Sneak attacks in this game are easy to use, so it's basically 1d6 extra damage, which is way more than feats usually grant. Precise strikes is the same and anyone, even full rogues can take it, but I think it only applies to melee.

The problem for me is I find myself designing classes around my knowledge of earlier editions of D&D. To stay on the safe side I'm picking reliable stuff that I've always picked like Dodge. Passive stuff that's always on but that was the old school D&D this is the new way so I'm basically trying to design a monk Rogue that has survivability more than tons of damage. He can hang out in the front line just chopping away slowly while I'm able to mitigate his damage.
The reason I I'm taking three levels of rogue is 4 evasion and the Finesse Dex to damage.
Although in the old school way I used to go more Rogue than Monk because of the other Feats that you would get but now it takes too long to get them in the Rogue line.
My old school rogue monk I always wanted to have uncanny Dodge and slippery mind so basically I had this guy running around with crazy high reflex saves crazy high AC crazy high will saves and he couldn't be charmed or flanked. A survivor.

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

Cleave is for hitting a low AC swarm type enemmies and then killing them all, honestly i just use it for finishing cleave...

[Blackdragon]

Pathfinder Great Cleave is a mix between D&D Cleave and Whirlwind Attack (which is not in this game). It allows attacking as many targets in your reach at your highest AB as you can successively hit. So potentially that's 8 attacks at your highest AB if you are Medium, and up to a whopping 32 possible attacks if you are Large and surrounded by enemies. So potential is enormous.

In reality. such perfect conditions would rarely if ever arise, of course, but it's still quite useful for clearing out swarms of enemies, and also against a boss enemy and minions if you're likely miss your iterative attacks against the boss anyway. If there is only one tough enemy in the field that you want to focus, just turn Cleave off.

One additional benefit of spreading your damage around instead of focusing on one target is debuffing. A Fighter 4/Thug 4 can impose up to 3 debuffs (Sickened from Brutal Beating, Bewildered from Debilitating Strike, and Shaken from Cornugon Smash) with each hit. Great Cleave can turn this into effectively AOE debuffs.

I find the Cleave - Great Cleave - Finisher - Improved Finisher a good chain for fighters and fighter/rogues who have combat feats to spare. Feat-starved builds might prefer to focus on their build-defining feats though.