Scaled Fist Monk Broken?

[revelst0ke]

I re-rolled as SF Monk - currently level 8 with 6 in SF 2 in Paladin for the CHA bonus to saves and some light healing. Pretty much focused on martial arts feats-wise so Pummeling, Dragon, Weapon Focus: Unarmed, Hammerblow, Trip, etc. Aasimar STR/CHA focus. At level 8 I am hitting for, at most, about 9 damage per punch. I do not ever see flurry in the combat logs, or hammerblow for that matter. In fact, all the logs ever say are 'Hit! 1d8 + 5'. With my 2H specialist hitting for 50-80, my rogue knifemaster hitting for about the same, and my ranger double tapping from 50 yards out, this is entirely underwhelming to be my main character and hitting for 9 damage. I mean hell, the Elk I have running around with my Sylvan Sorc hits for 20-30 with Gore.

What the heck is up with monk and what, if anything, am I doing wrong here?

[Edstyles]

Originally posted by omegazeda:

I play Scaled fist Monk lvl 10 currently, seems ok so far, nothing broken, except maybe the fact that some abbilities require WIS instead of Charisma, like dragon roar and stunning fist.

wait dragon roar is wisdom? How? lol. Must be an oversight.

[Selvokaz]

Originally posted by GreenBob:

Originally posted by Lettus:

anyone notice that all the monks except Scaled Fist seem to calculate their AC's wrong? I've tried Monk and Traditional Monk, and noticed that they calculate the Wisdom AC bonus correctly during creation but after you start the game they come up wrong. Haven't tried it on Sensei yet though.

i could be wrong but they dont get a wisdom AC bonus only sensie gets that and thats why people build traditional monk, monk and scaled fist wrong because its abilitises have absolutelty zero to do with willpower.

Nope, Every monk adds 1 of his mental ability scores to his AC as well as his Dex, Cha for Scaled Fist, and Wisdom for everyone else thats in the game. The monk's bonus AC ability even states it. Even Sensei's AC bonus is currently not calculating properly last i tested it, as in it's not adding a +3 Wisdom bonus if you have a 16 wisdom. Also another issue is that traditional monk is calculating Full BAB (+1 every level) when in fact it's supposed to be 3/4 BAB, which means right now Traditional Monk is one of the best classes in the game because it gets FULL BAB and 3 Good Saves and d10 Hit Dice, when it should be getting d8 hit dice.

[IKerensky]

Originally posted by Lettus:

Originally posted by GreenBob:

i could be wrong but they dont get a wisdom AC bonus only sensie gets that and thats why people build traditional monk, monk and scaled fist wrong because its abilitises have absolutelty zero to do with willpower.

Nope, Every monk adds 1 of his mental ability scores to his AC as well as his Dex, Cha for Scaled Fist, and Wisdom for everyone else thats in the game. The monk's bonus AC ability even states it. Even Sensei's AC bonus is currently not calculating properly last i tested it, as in it's not adding a +3 Wisdom bonus if you have a 16 wisdom. Also another issue is that traditional monk is calculating Full BAB (+1 every level) when in fact it's supposed to be 3/4 BAB, which means right now Traditional Monk is one of the best classes in the game because it gets FULL BAB and 3 Good Saves and d10 Hit Dice, when it should be getting d8 hit dice.

Did you have Flurry activated ? because traditionnal monks are full BAB in furry mode.

[jazzable]

Originally posted by IKerensky:

Originally posted by Lettus:

Nope, Every monk adds 1 of his mental ability scores to his AC as well as his Dex, Cha for Scaled Fist, and Wisdom for everyone else thats in the game. The monk's bonus AC ability even states it. Even Sensei's AC bonus is currently not calculating properly last i tested it, as in it's not adding a +3 Wisdom bonus if you have a 16 wisdom. Also another issue is that traditional monk is calculating Full BAB (+1 every level) when in fact it's supposed to be 3/4 BAB, which means right now Traditional Monk is one of the best classes in the game because it gets FULL BAB and 3 Good Saves and d10 Hit Dice, when it should be getting d8 hit dice.

Did you have Flurry activated ? because traditionnal monks are full BAB in furry mode.

I don´t understand...traditional monks used to a be a 3/4 BAB class and early on Flurry would impose a penalty on attacks, not a bonus. Am i missing something here?

[GreenBob]

Originally posted by Lettus:

Originally posted by GreenBob:

i could be wrong but they dont get a wisdom AC bonus only sensie gets that and thats why people build traditional monk, monk and scaled fist wrong because its abilitises have absolutelty zero to do with willpower.

Nope, Every monk adds 1 of his mental ability scores to his AC as well as his Dex, Cha for Scaled Fist, and Wisdom for everyone else thats in the game. The monk's bonus AC ability even states it. Even Sensei's AC bonus is currently not calculating properly last i tested it, as in it's not adding a +3 Wisdom bonus if you have a 16 wisdom. Also another issue is that traditional monk is calculating Full BAB (+1 every level) when in fact it's supposed to be 3/4 BAB, which means right now Traditional Monk is one of the best classes in the game because it gets FULL BAB and 3 Good Saves and d10 Hit Dice, when it should be getting d8 hit dice.

yeah i went back and reread the descriptions for monk after the post, my bad, either way though i dont see as to why they just dont have wisdom as the monks damage multiplier as well. its not like it would be any stronger this way as you could cut down the monk to a constitution and wisdom based class with dexterity for some added reflex saves. its like you have to pick between being super weak or super fragile. either way its most benificial to cut out dex or wisdom from your build so you can get decent dps.

[jazzable]

Monk needs a bit of patience; your unarmed damage gets upgraded along the way.
He also gets a nice number of attacks. Neglecting WIS or DEX means you´re runnung around in a chainshirt (AC-wise) expexting to do well in melee. Not gonna happen.

[IKerensky]

Originally posted by jazzable:

Originally posted by IKerensky:

Did you have Flurry activated ? because traditionnal monks are full BAB in furry mode.

I don´t understand...traditional monks used to a be a 3/4 BAB class and early on Flurry would impose a penalty on attacks, not a bonus. Am i missing something here?

Monk are 3/4 standard, but when using Flurry they go BAB 1 with a -2 to both attack, for traditionnal monk.

Level 1 they are -1/-1 not -2/-2...

But they qualify as BAB 3/4 for feats.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/

[CHAO$$$]

Originally posted by IKerensky:

Originally posted by jazzable:

I don´t understand...traditional monks used to a be a 3/4 BAB class and early on Flurry would impose a penalty on attacks, not a bonus. Am i missing something here?

Monk are 3/4 standard, but when using Flurry they go BAB 1 with a -2 to both attack, for traditionnal monk.

Level 1 they are -1/-1 not -2/-2...

But they qualify as BAB 3/4 for feats.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/

Most of this is incorrect. Id be careful linking to non game related sites since there are about a million iterations of the DnD ruleset.

Monks in this game get full BAB.
Monk get NO penalty on flurry.

[Midnight]

Originally posted by IKerensky:

Originally posted by jazzable:

I don´t understand...traditional monks used to a be a 3/4 BAB class and early on Flurry would impose a penalty on attacks, not a bonus. Am i missing something here?

Monk are 3/4 standard, but when using Flurry they go BAB 1 with a -2 to both attack, for traditionnal monk.

Level 1 they are -1/-1 not -2/-2...

But they qualify as BAB 3/4 for feats.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/

Basic monk in this game is actually Unchained Monk. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained/

Traditional monk is the basic Pathfinder monk.

[jazzable]

Yep.

[IKerensky]

Originally posted by Midnight:

Originally posted by IKerensky:

Monk are 3/4 standard, but when using Flurry they go BAB 1 with a -2 to both attack, for traditionnal monk.

Level 1 they are -1/-1 not -2/-2...

But they qualify as BAB 3/4 for feats.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/

Basic monk in this game is actually Unchained Monk. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained/

Traditional monk is the basic Pathfinder monk.

Yes, and ALL my comments are related to traditionnal monk, wich is why I linked the correct model so you can see that traditionnal monk/not unchained is actually BAB 1 and not BAB 3/4 when applying Flurry of Blows and have always been, so, no bug.

Here is official Pathfinder french wiki page showing Flury of Blow progression table so you double-check it is indeed BAB 1.
http://www.pathfinder-fr.org/Wiki/Pathfinder-RPG.Moine.ashx

All my comments where answer to Lettus wondering why traditionnal Monks were getting BAB 1 and calling a bug.

[revelst0ke]

So unfortunately this thread appears to have a slew of conflicting information. It's clear that someone from Owlcat needs to jump in here and provide a response with accurate information.

- AC works or it doesnt
- Flurry works or it doesnt
- Monk works before patch but might not after
- My monk does damage while this other guys doesnt
- You should use weapons or you shouldn't

The inconsistency is just a red flag to me that either somethings broken or there's a hidden element somewhere thats driving different experiences.

I will include combat log screenshots when I get home. Its very obvious flurry, hammerblow, various other damage modifiers arent applying. A level 8 monk should not hit for 9 or be out DPS'ed by a Sorcerer with a light xbow...

Also...not a conversation on multi-classing but thanks for your input :)

[CHAO$$$]

Originally posted by revelst0ke:

So unfortunately this thread appears to have a slew of conflicting information. It's clear that someone from Owlcat needs to jump in here and provide a response with accurate information.

- AC works or it doesnt
- Flurry works or it doesnt
- Monk works before patch but might not after
- My monk does damage while this other guys doesnt
- You should use weapons or you shouldn't

The inconsistency is just a red flag to me that either somethings broken or there's a hidden element somewhere thats driving different experiences.

I will include combat log screenshots when I get home. Its very obvious flurry, hammerblow, various other damage modifiers arent applying. A level 8 monk should not hit for 9 or be out DPS'ed by a Sorcerer with a light xbow...

Also...not a conversation on multi-classing but thanks for your input :)

There is no inconsistency. Everything i said is correct.
If you can read you will get the expected results.

[Midnight]

Originally posted by revelst0ke:

So unfortunately this thread appears to have a slew of conflicting information. It's clear that someone from Owlcat needs to jump in here and provide a response with accurate information.

- AC works or it doesnt
- Flurry works or it doesnt
- Monk works before patch but might not after
- My monk does damage while this other guys doesnt
- You should use weapons or you shouldn't

The inconsistency is just a red flag to me that either somethings broken or there's a hidden element somewhere thats driving different experiences.

I will include combat log screenshots when I get home. Its very obvious flurry, hammerblow, various other damage modifiers arent applying. A level 8 monk should not hit for 9 or be out DPS'ed by a Sorcerer with a light xbow...

Also...not a conversation on multi-classing but thanks for your input :)

1) Is the AC bonus not working in logs (actual calculations) or is it just UI bug?
2) Flurry seems to work for me, do you wear armor?
3) Unarmed damage for lvl 6 monk is 1d8, if you didn't take 2 paladin levels it would be 1d10 already.
4) Where is your damage bonus coming from? Are you using DEX or STR for damage? By default unarmed uses STR for damage, do you have the amulet which uses DEX bonus for damage instead?

If you're gonna multiclass monk to paladin do it at lvl 12. That is the level after you get your second flurry attack, before that you are delaying your early unarmed damage and are delaying your second flurry (which is a big deal).

Monk doesn't like multiclassing much, you have to plan it very carefully. Most people run DEX and multiclass into sneak attack class because it makes up for the lost damage progression (and they're most likely using weapons anyway), paladin gives you no damage so if you really want saves lvl 12 is THE point you want to do it.

By this point you delayed your unarmed damage progression by 2 lvls. So you can just use weapons with flurry, as long as they're monk weapons as listed in monk proficiency.

[revelst0ke]

Originally posted by Midnight:

1) Is the AC bonus not working in logs (actual calculations) or is it just UI bug?
2) Flurry seems to work for me, do you wear armor?
3) Unarmed damage for lvl 6 monk is 1d8, if you didn't take 2 paladin levels it would be 1d10 already.
4) Where is your damage bonus coming from? Are you using DEX or STR for damage? By default unarmed uses STR for damage, do you have the amulet which uses DEX bonus for damage instead?

If you're gonna multiclass monk to paladin do it at lvl 12. That is the level after you get your second flurry attack, before that you are delaying your early unarmed damage and are delaying your second flurry (which is a big deal).

Monk doesn't like multiclassing much, you have to plan it very carefully. Most people run DEX and multiclass into sneak attack class because it makes up for the lost damage progression (and they're most likely using weapons anyway), paladin gives you no damage so if you really want saves lvl 12 is THE point you want to do it.

By this point you delayed your unarmed damage progression by 2 lvls. So you can just use weapons with flurry, as long as they're monk weapons as listed in monk proficiency.

1) AC is actually working for me (currently at about 29) was just commenting that it seems to be mis-understood anytime anyone talks about Monk. The people recommending DEX for AC are wrong (or somewhat wrong) as Scaled Monk gets AC from Charisma.
2) No armor, unless bracers or boots are considered armor
3) Ok so lets assume I didn't multi-class and had d10's. I'm still only seeing a single die being rolled, per round, with no bonuses from hammerblow. I'm not sure where the +5 is coming from in the log, but assume it's the STR bonus from Dragon Style.
4) Primary stats are CHA/STR. I'm not at home but think i've got CHA around 22, STR at 20. Dex is like, 16, CON 14...something along those lines. I already have other DEX party members so didn't go that route.

The multi-class I am building is a pretty common and highly regarded build as far as I can tell. Basically Monk/Pal/Sorc into Dragon Disciple. Maybe I'm 'doing it wrong', but that was the plan. Scaled Fist being CHA for AC lent itself naturally to Paladin CHA to save. Next point at 9 is going into Sorc for the pre-reqs, then back to monk for flurry, then DD.