Sneak Attack Damage too high/ CC too weak

[puksone]

Sneak attack is way to good. Why play a Summoner or Controller? Just get your sneak attack stuff and beat the sh't out of everything. The damage output is so brutal and the saves of the monsters so high, that nothing else makes sense.

It's funny in the tabletop, the martial classes suck hard. In this game, just straight up non damage caster builds are unplayable.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by Waagabond:

Just did a test with my companions here.

Just tried my barbarian and Nok Nok for comparison can for sure screen shot some in.

Nok Nok using +4 kukris with +2 elemental and full out knife rogue for 1d8 sneak damage.

My barbarian on a regular hit with power attack and around 30+ hit hit including -5 from power attack does same damage as when Nok Nok hits with a sneak.

When my barbarian crits using power attack he is doing roughly 50% more damage then when Nok Nok crits including sneak damage.

This is raw BAB invulnerable rager using a +5 oversized bastard sword and *3 crit multipler due to rage. Weapons you find act 3 mind you. So these are weapons you will have around level 12.

There's nothing stopping you from using Pirhanna Strikes (power attack equivalent) on the rogue. He has insane dex, tends to make up for the loss in BAB and at your level the BAB difference isn't that big anyway.

[Biggie]

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Originally posted by Waagabond:

Just did a test with my companions here.

Just tried my barbarian and Nok Nok for comparison can for sure screen shot some in.

Nok Nok using +4 kukris with +2 elemental and full out knife rogue for 1d8 sneak damage.

My barbarian on a regular hit with power attack and around 30+ hit hit including -5 from power attack does same damage as when Nok Nok hits with a sneak.

When my barbarian crits using power attack he is doing roughly 50% more damage then when Nok Nok crits including sneak damage.

This is raw BAB invulnerable rager using a +5 oversized bastard sword and *3 crit multipler due to rage. Weapons you find act 3 mind you. So these are weapons you will have around level 12.

There's nothing stopping you from using Pirhanna Strikes (power attack equivalent) on the rogue. He has insane dex, tends to make up for the loss in BAB and at your level the BAB difference isn't that big anyway.

Dude that insane dex your talking about, that same insane strenght is what martial classes have. And they have other feats ontop to increase to hit and damage.
The paladin can make his weapon up to +6 more or a few more plus and add in holy, keen, fire you name it.
The barbarian have lethal stance for +1 to hit every 4th level + rage bonus that is +3 already mid game.
Fighters, they just fall behind but are not bad due to the many feats they get.
Rangers : Favored enemies.

The list goes on, stats simiar plus higher bab plus abilities pushing the to hit much much higher.

And your correct there is nothing stopping you from using Piranha strikes.
But we are not talking trash mobs here.

You can walk around killing most mobs with a master work great sword from act 1 all the way until end game.

You wont have the to hit requires to use piranah strikes vs the tougher mobs.
You wont even hit your paimary attack since fully buffed and +5 weapons and hyped in dex you will be sitting with piranah strike at around 25 to hit.
This is roughly 10+ to hit away from a power attacking Full bab class that hits consistently where you might hit once in a while.

So your correct, you can use it and you will land hits vs enemies its not needed vs.

But on harder difficulties you sure as heck wont even hit the mobs in act 1 at 10+ if your using piranah strike as a rogue.

Just some examples : Just on hard mode : no more no less. The AC to aim to hit consistent end of act 1 is around 30. Many are around 20 but you will encounter a truck load of mobs around 30 ac.

Some enemies act 4 sits at 50, 60, 70 AC.

You can turn off power attack as martial characters
You cant magically get higher to hit as rogue, spell caster classes.
True strike sure once per round and there are other ways, the magus can work around this but their work aroudn puts them on par with a normal full bab class.

Point is : In the long run, it evens out.
Early game sneak attack is absurdly strong. I do not dispute this at all.
But mid game, end game its more often below in raw overall damage, not even on par.

Add in a paladin to the mix with his power attacks, bab, smite evlil and his 1 minute per level buffs to his weapon making it hit like a truck from megatron.

Sneak damage is not the reason for all damage universally.
It evens out in the long run and is required to be on par with pure martial classes.

Im not saying its bad, im not defending it either. Im just saying that its definately not much better. Its balanced.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by Waagabond:

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

There's nothing stopping you from using Pirhanna Strikes (power attack equivalent) on the rogue. He has insane dex, tends to make up for the loss in BAB and at your level the BAB difference isn't that big anyway.

Dude that insane dex your talking about, that same insane strenght is what martial classes have.

And your correct there is nothing stopping you from using Piranha strikes.
But we are not talking trash mobs here.

You can walk around killing most mobs with a master work great sword from act 1 all the way until end game.

You wont have the to hit requires to use piranah strikes vs the tougher mobs.
You wont even hit your paimary attack since fully buffed and +5 weapons and hyped in dex you will be sitting with piranah strike at around 25 to hit.
This is roughly 10+ to hit away from a power attacking Full bab class that hits consistently where you might hit once in a while.

So your correct, you can use it and you will land hits vs enemies its not needed vs.

But on harder difficulties you sure as heck wont even hit the mobs in act 1 at 10+ if your using piranah strike as a rogue.

Just some examples : Just on hard mode : no more no less. The AC to aim to hit consistent end of act 1 is around 30. Many are around 20 but you will encounter a truck load of mobs around 30 ac.

Some enemies act 4 sits at 50, 60 AC.

You can turn off power attack as martial characters
You cant magically get higher to hit as rogue, spell caster classes.
True strike sure once per round and there are other ways, the magus can work around this but their work aroudn puts them on par with a normal full bab class.

Point is : In the long run, it evens out.
Early game sneak attack is absurdly strong. I do not dispute this at all.
But mid game, end game its more often below in raw overall damage, not even on par.

Add in a paladin to the mix with his power attacks, bab, smite evlil and his 1 minute per level buffs to his weapon making it hit like a truck from megatron.

Sneak damage is not the reason for all damage universally.
It evens out in the long run and is required to be on par with pure martial classes.

Im not saying its bad, im not defending it either. Im just saying that its definately not much better. Its balanced.

Not true. A rogue dumps all Strength down to 7 or lower, and usually doesn't take all that much Con either. Barbarian has to balance Strength and Dex to survive, so usually he's a few points lower in both.

Additionally, there's Debilitating Injury (Bewildered). When a rogue lands a sneak attack (probably his first attack at full BAB) he applies a debuff that reduces the targets AC. -2 for everyone, but it goes to -8 for the rogue at level 16. That's effectively the same as the rogue having 6-8 higher to-hit than other characters, provided he can hit at least once first (6 if you assume you'll have a rogue anyway, 8 if you don't). The debuff stacks to extend its duration, so once the rogue hits once he has a much easier time hitting again for the rest of combat.

[TaKo]

Originally posted by Waagabond:

Originally posted by TaKoDancer:

you didnt address the state of ranged sneak attacks, and even then, easy 10D6 dmg on each attack during a round is way too much

You have power attacks for bows as well, precision strike. It will outperform ranged sneak over time due to higher bab, rapid shot and many shot. You cant afford the minus to hit from rapid shot and precision or whatever its called, with a sneak or arcane trickster bab. You will have 50% bab and 2 attacks per round compared to 4 attacks per round bab +2 from rapid shot and many shot.

You cant even afford to rapid shot as low bab class higher up since the lack of to hit is too steep.
So they are doing 4 attacks per round more with bonus damage per attack.

I agree with you, Im just saying in the long run and combat taking longer then 1 round that sneak attack damage wont be ontop, at most it will be on par.

im a bot confused here, when i said "the state of ranged sneak attacks" i meant that they're too strong, as all you need is 2 melee combatants threatening a target, which will allow a ranged rogue to do ridiculous ammounts of dmg from safety

[Biggie]

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Originally posted by Waagabond:

Dude that insane dex your talking about, that same insane strenght is what martial classes have.

And your correct there is nothing stopping you from using Piranha strikes.
But we are not talking trash mobs here.

You can walk around killing most mobs with a master work great sword from act 1 all the way until end game.

You wont have the to hit requires to use piranah strikes vs the tougher mobs.
You wont even hit your paimary attack since fully buffed and +5 weapons and hyped in dex you will be sitting with piranah strike at around 25 to hit.
This is roughly 10+ to hit away from a power attacking Full bab class that hits consistently where you might hit once in a while.

So your correct, you can use it and you will land hits vs enemies its not needed vs.

But on harder difficulties you sure as heck wont even hit the mobs in act 1 at 10+ if your using piranah strike as a rogue.

Just some examples : Just on hard mode : no more no less. The AC to aim to hit consistent end of act 1 is around 30. Many are around 20 but you will encounter a truck load of mobs around 30 ac.

Some enemies act 4 sits at 50, 60 AC.

You can turn off power attack as martial characters
You cant magically get higher to hit as rogue, spell caster classes.
True strike sure once per round and there are other ways, the magus can work around this but their work aroudn puts them on par with a normal full bab class.

Point is : In the long run, it evens out.
Early game sneak attack is absurdly strong. I do not dispute this at all.
But mid game, end game its more often below in raw overall damage, not even on par.

Add in a paladin to the mix with his power attacks, bab, smite evlil and his 1 minute per level buffs to his weapon making it hit like a truck from megatron.

Sneak damage is not the reason for all damage universally.
It evens out in the long run and is required to be on par with pure martial classes.

Im not saying its bad, im not defending it either. Im just saying that its definately not much better. Its balanced.

Not true. A rogue dumps all Strength down to 7 or lower, and usually doesn't take all that much Con either. Barbarian has to balance Strength and Dex to survive, so usually he's a few points lower in both.

Additionally, there's Debilitating Injury (Bewildered). When a rogue lands a sneak attack (probably his first attack at full BAB) he applies a debuff that reduces the targets AC. -2 for everyone, but it goes to -8 for the rogue at level 16. That's effectively the same as the rogue having 6-8 higher to-hit than other characters, provided he can hit at least once first (6 if you assume you'll have a rogue anyway, 8 if you don't). The debuff stacks to extend its duration, so once the rogue hits once he has a much easier time hitting again for the rest of combat.

True.

At most, at most. A rogue class have +1 to hit more from stats at level 1.
So at level 1 they have same attack bonus. Since rogues have 0 bab at level 1, martial classes have +1.
So the barbarian went for 17 strenght instead of 19. as example.
But in doing this they didnt gimp their con, dex, wisdom or int for that matter.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by Waagabond:

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Not true. A rogue dumps all Strength down to 7 or lower, and usually doesn't take all that much Con either. Barbarian has to balance Strength and Dex to survive, so usually he's a few points lower in both.

Additionally, there's Debilitating Injury (Bewildered). When a rogue lands a sneak attack (probably his first attack at full BAB) he applies a debuff that reduces the targets AC. -2 for everyone, but it goes to -8 for the rogue at level 16. That's effectively the same as the rogue having 6-8 higher to-hit than other characters, provided he can hit at least once first (6 if you assume you'll have a rogue anyway, 8 if you don't). The debuff stacks to extend its duration, so once the rogue hits once he has a much easier time hitting again for the rest of combat.

True.

At most, at most. A rogue class have +1 to hit more from stats at level 1.
So at level 1 they have same attack bonus. Since rogues have 0 bab at level 1, martial classes have +1.
So the barbarian went for 17 strenght instead of 19. as example.
But in doing this they didnt gimp their con, dex, wisdom or int for that matter.

So once you've added the +8 from Bewildered and the +1-3 from dex (2 if the barb has to use a weaker split stat belt instead of a pure strength, 3 if we are comparing to Nok Nok's +4 dex racial), you've eliminated any extra Hit the barb gets from his BAB and from Rage. All that's left is whatever he gets from his Stance. It's still higher than the rogue hit, but we've narrowed the gap quite considerably and running Piranha strikes/deadly aim is starting to look like a good idea.

[HoHoHO]

sneak is strong because it applies to all damage rolls.

There's a lot of things that procs a different sneak attack damage roll.
main weapon
Weapon may have enchaments that give +force dmg
There's a glove that gives +dmg type
Enchantment spell like firebrand that give +fire dmg
amulet that gives another 2d6 sneak

So a single attack isn't doing 10d6 worth of sneak. You're doing 42d6 worth of sneak attack damage per hit. Throw in a bite, which also procs another 42d6 dmg. And I think there's a couple other armor that gives additoinal sneak or +dmg type.

[puksone]

Originally posted by erian:

Originally posted by puksone:

Higher diff => monster have better saves.

And mobs have higher ac and higher health.While it was hard for cc specialist when the game started due to to bug with mobs saves,now you can lock even bosses on unfair most of the time(if you dont get an unlucky streak)

Oke that explains a lot. I played a wizard when the game came out. I had max int, spell focus and so on. I could never lock boss.

[Elite Seraph]

There's a reason why flanking requires people on two opposite sides to flank in the PnP. It promotes movement, makes large creatures more dangerous, and balances sneak attack damage.

Letting amy two characters attacking the same target flank is OP as hell. It breaks the balance of the game.

[rumpelstiltskin]

i like relaxed flanking requirements. in other dnd games i never bothered building a sneak attacker since it was just too circumstantial and unreliable. now it still needs 2 guys attacking someone, so you'd have to prioritize and move people around, but it's something that can realistically be done consistently in most fights, not a surprise bonus that you can pull off only occasionally.

[amiablequinn]

I think that stricter flanking requirements would require a turn based system to really work properly, although under the current system sneak attacks are out of control. CC is not weak, you just need to build for them to get your chance of success up to something reasonable on higher difficulties.

I always use the example of my tripmaster inquisitor. True strike applies to CM rolls and you do fun things like can enlarge on the inquisitor and have him consistently trip mobs from the back line. Early game it makes previosuly difficult fights at higher difficulties (bear treant, shambling mound) a joke.

[Elite Seraph]

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

i like relaxed flanking requirements. in other dnd games i never bothered building a sneak attacker since it was just too circumstantial and unreliable. now it still needs 2 guys attacking someone, so you'd have to prioritize and move people around, but it's something that can realistically be done consistently in most fights, not a surprise bonus that you can pull off only occasionally.

The funny thing is that there are PLENTY of ways to open up opponents to sneak attack. Flanking is just one of them. Surprise round. Going first on initiative. Stealth. And the teamwork feat "Gang Up": Which means any time 3+ characters with the feat are attacking the same target, they all give flanking no matter where they're positioned.

Not to mention Mobility or Acrobatics to position yourself correctly. Dimension door, and several magical items that allow movement. The level one arcane spell "Vanish" turns you invisible for 1 round per level(max 5), letting you either position for flank, or just attack from stealth.

Just being able to sneak attack+flank because one other person is attacking is retardedly oversimplified and powerful.

[FeurinLongcastle]

Originally posted by Waagabond:

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

There's nothing stopping you from using Pirhanna Strikes (power attack equivalent) on the rogue. He has insane dex, tends to make up for the loss in BAB and at your level the BAB difference isn't that big anyway.

Dude that insane dex your talking about, that same insane strenght is what martial classes have.

Nok-Nok is a goblin, meaning he has a +4 racial bonus to Dex, higher than anyone else can have. Further, he can dump every other stat (except maybe Con). Fighters/Barbs need some Dex for survivability and generally more Con as armored AC fails to scale as well as pure dodge AC's so their stats are more spread

[rumpelstiltskin]

Originally posted by Elite Seraph:

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

i like relaxed flanking requirements. in other dnd games i never bothered building a sneak attacker since it was just too circumstantial and unreliable. now it still needs 2 guys attacking someone, so you'd have to prioritize and move people around, but it's something that can realistically be done consistently in most fights, not a surprise bonus that you can pull off only occasionally.

The funny thing is that there are PLENTY of ways to open up opponents to sneak attack. Flanking is just one of them. Surprise round. Going first on initiative. Stealth. And the teamwork feat "Gang Up": Which means any time 3+ characters with the feat are attacking the same target, they all give flanking no matter where they're positioned.

Not to mention Mobility or Acrobatics to position yourself correctly. Dimension door, and several magical items that allow movement. The level one arcane spell "Vanish" turns you invisible for 1 round per level(max 5), letting you either position for flank, or just attack from stealth.

Just being able to sneak attack+flank because one other person is attacking is retardedly oversimplified and powerful.

all of those are either mid+ game (where SA is not so powerful anymore), or are just too cumbersome/cost-ineffective to do. if you have to waste a round to re-cast vanish to get an SA next round (opening up for an attack of opportunity), it might be better to just use 2 attacks. in the early game you just don't have enough options, and without "streamlined" SA rules, it would be that either you can't win a fight, or it's "too easy", or you have to rely on consumables.

[Fendelphi]

Some numbers and assumptions:

Rogues focused on sneak attacks and multiple attacks have roughly the same damage output as 2-handed fighters/barbarians(or slightly above them).
This is due to Dex builds enabling Improved/Greater Weapon fighting or Rapidfire/Multishot, offsetting the lower BAB in terms of numbers of attacks to be comparable to the high BAB classes.
In addition, Sneak attacks can be applied multiple times per round and even multiple times per attack in some circumstances(if this is a bug or feature, I do not know).
A level 16 Rogue can easily achieve 10d6 SA damage per attack, which is an average of +35 damage per attack.
With about 5 attacks per round, that is potentially 175 SA damage each round.
Even more if you can multiple SA on a single attack(as mentioned before).

Still, this can be offset by fighters/barbarians critting enemies while using Power Attack and having high crit rate/damage weapons.
Which is why I said that the damage is roughly the same overall.


However, what breaks SA damage is that this damage can be done from range and require a minimum investment. If you can take out an enemy mage or healer before the rest of the enemies can react to your party, you are already far ahead in the DPR-race. And as you can keep this going after lines have met, the Fighter/Barbarian wont be able to catch up in terms of effectiveness.
Maybe a Fighter with Greater Cleaving Finish against multiple, low health enemies can compete, but the Barbarian is more or less left out as a damage sponge with high attack power(but behind the rogue).

In addition to that, the Rogue can do other things, like dealing with traps or scout ahead in stealth. IMO, Rogues are supposed to be masters of circumstance or "maximum effort". If you set them up, they will wreck havoc and they can do a multitude of things, either in melee or from range.
They are not, IMO, supposed to be the main damage dealers in your party.


And when multiclassing, a single level dip into a SA class is such a big potential damage increase that it is almost mandatory for a damage focused character.