Fangberry Cave - Spider Swarm.

[MrSmiley]

Whatever developer thought of putting three f*cking mobs on the first side-quest in the game that can only be attacked by AOE magic is f*cking moron. Especially considering that the three companions you're given are only capable of basic attacks, relying on the player to have made a mage character.

Not only that but these things have a ridiculous AC and chance to hit, with stacking permanent strength debuffs.

What are these fearsome creatures, you might be wondering? A DOZEN F*CKING HOUSEHOLD SIZED SPIDERS. Thank you developers, for turning me off a wonderful game with one of the worst designed side-quests I've ever seen in 15 years of gaming.

EDIT: Stats of the creatures from my experience.
17 AC.

Guaranteed to hit. Every single round with 1d6+1.

A DC 11 fortitude save for 1-2 STR damage, as well as a 5 second stun. Every. Single. Attack.

Every attack is a melee ranged AOE.

Roughly 12-20 HP.

EDIT2:
Finally managed to beat it. Using 11 Alchemist Fire flasks, 2 acid flasks, 2 party members sustaining permanent STR damage, 4 healing potions, a barkskin flask and a bless flask.

Total cost of this side-quest in-game: 400+GP, multiple hours resting to recover stats.
Total cost of this side-quest OOC: 2+ hours and a lot of frustration.

[Amaror]

Originally posted by Claytonmorby:

Except in Pathfinder Spider Swarms are a thing. I recommend reading up on the actual tabletop game, this video game is pulling near word for word from it. There's going to be mechanics in it you won't get beforehand without prior knowledge.

Then that is terrible, terrible game design. Lots of crpgs are based on, or at least inspired by, tabletop rpg-mechanics. But they also make sure to teach you those mechanics in the game.

[RafaelElendil]

Originally posted by Starkad:

They aren't actually immune to non-aoe, they are immune to weapon damage. Which is why the flasks and torches work - they do fire/acid damage.

nope, they dont work, flash works cause they splash damage is AoE. Any single target effect, but RAW, dont work on them.

[Stella Volpe]

Originally posted by Amaror:

Originally posted by Claytonmorby:

Except in Pathfinder Spider Swarms are a thing. I recommend reading up on the actual tabletop game, this video game is pulling near word for word from it. There's going to be mechanics in it you won't get beforehand without prior knowledge.

Then that is terrible, terrible game design. Lots of crpgs are based on, or at least inspired by, tabletop rpg-mechanics. But they also make sure to teach you those mechanics in the game.

I believe that's what the encounter, does. It teaches you. There are other swarms of differing types elsewhere in the game. Some of them are a lot more deadly. But since you wind up doing the spider swarms, and figuring out how to damage them, your knowledge will carry over.

[Stella Volpe]

Originally posted by RafaelElendil:

Originally posted by Starkad:

They aren't actually immune to non-aoe, they are immune to weapon damage. Which is why the flasks and torches work - they do fire/acid damage.

nope, they dont work, flash works cause they splash damage is AoE. Any single target effect, but RAW, dont work on them.

This is the second thread where you're spouting rules and being incorrect. Please read the rules before you try to quote them. Confusing everyone is counter productive.

"Immune: mind-affecting effects, weapon damage"

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/spider/spider-swarm/

[Kozzy]

One of the best parts of crpgs for me are aspects like this, you are not treated like an idiot, they force you to do some thinking. How am I going to beat this part which seems impossible?

Only to finalyl beat it and find out it is not very tough at all and not impossible in the slightest. Gives you a feeling of accomplishment to get past parts that give you trouble. It is a breath of fresh air to have some rpgs that don't hold your hand all the time and give away how to do everything. Actually have to think about things which is great imo. Might cause some frusteration at first for some, but it sure is nice to be challenged and actually have to think in a modern rpg again.

If you can't figure it out then ask for some help or tips from others who got past the past. no need to curse up a storm.

[Amaror]

Originally posted by Kozzy - Pathfinder!:

MANY MANY crpgs have tough stuff early on. Hell even the PB rpgs like Gothic and Risen, if you wander off to much you can die instantly. Common sense will get you out of not only this part in Pathfinder, but that part in Pillars 1 and many other cprgs. Sorry but this is not Skyrim, you have to use that thing called a brain at times.

Yeah, many games do that. And in those games, you can run away when things get to tough. And in general the game will also make it apparent why you failed. Sometimes the enemies are just too strong. Sometimes you are just too low in level.
This game doesn't tell you this, because levelling up doesn't help you against the swarms much. Only knowing that they require AoE attacks will help you in here, WHICH THE GAME DOENS'T TELL YOU.

[Kozzy]

Originally posted by Starkad:

Originally posted by Amaror:

Then that is terrible, terrible game design. Lots of crpgs are based on, or at least inspired by, tabletop rpg-mechanics. But they also make sure to teach you those mechanics in the game.

I believe that's what the encounter, does. It teaches you. There are other swarms of differing types elsewhere in the game. Some of them are a lot more deadly. But since you wind up doing the spider swarms, and figuring out how to damage them, your knowledge will carry over.

Yup, great post! Some people just don't like to learn and get knowledge for later on in games. Sad but true, alot of lazy gamers that are use to super easy rpgs that don't make you think or challenge you.

[RafaelElendil]

Originally posted by Starkad:

Originally posted by RafaelElendil:

nope, they dont work, flash works cause they splash damage is AoE. Any single target effect, but RAW, dont work on them.

This is the second thread where you're spouting rules and being incorrect. Please read the rules before you try to quote them. Confusing everyone is counter productive.

"Immune mind-affecting effects, weapon damage"

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/spider/spider-swarm/

"A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells."

Under swarm traits.

[Lexi]

"I'm afraid the mission for the Stolenlands have been canceled. There have been reports of.. Spiders. Yes, spiders. Please remain calm everyone, I have posted extra guards and sent letters out to neighbouring Kingdoms requesting aid. We'll make it though this."

Swarms should be a test of a party being prepped with either AN aoe or a torch. It should not be an encounter to the death. The swarms hit way to hard (Fort saves every character what the heck), have far too much AC (Which is a problem in the game in general). In the real game a GM wouldn't say "No you die because you didn't throw an entire shelf of fire bombs at these spiders". But this is a game, not the tabletop. As someone who has played basically every crpg from the first to last.. Pathfinder Kingdoms by far as the worst, most inconsistant balance I've seen.

[RafaelElendil]

Originally posted by Kozzy - Pathfinder!:

Originally posted by Starkad:

I believe that's what the encounter, does. It teaches you. There are other swarms of differing types elsewhere in the game. Some of them are a lot more deadly. But since you wind up doing the spider swarms, and figuring out how to damage them, your knowledge will carry over.

Yup, great post! Some people just don't like to learn and get knowledge for later on in games. Sad but true, alot of lazy games that are use to super easy rpgs that don't make you think or challenge you.

Nope, old rpgs teach you by beating you but not killing you, you flee from combat, learn, and come back stronger...

How do i flee in this game?

[Stella Volpe]

Originally posted by RafaelElendil:

Originally posted by Starkad:

This is the second thread where you're spouting rules and being incorrect. Please read the rules before you try to quote them. Confusing everyone is counter productive.

"Immune mind-affecting effects, weapon damage"

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/spider/spider-swarm/

"A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells."

Under swarm traits.

I stand corrected, my apologies. That means the torch shouldn't do squat against them, then, and that's just Owlcat throwing us a bone.

[MrSmiley]

The point I'm trying to make is that this isn't something I should have to learn right at the start of the game in the first side-quest, by dying. That's simply bad game design.

Imagine if a DM just let you fight the spiders, had them kill your characters and just said "haha welp, I guess you know how to defeat them now. Hope you all prepared a backup character and we'll replay the same last hour of the campaign."

[Balalaika]

Originally posted by MrSmiley:

Whatever developer thought of putting three f*cking mobs on the first side-quest in the game that can only be attacked by AOE magic is f*cking moron. Especially considering that the three companions you're given are only capable of basic attacks, relying on the player to have made a mage character.

Not only that but these things have a ridiculous AC and chance to hit, with stacking permanent strength debuffs.

What are these fearsome creatures, you might be wondering? A DOZEN F*CKING HOUSEHOLD SIZED SPIDERS. Thank you developers, for turning me off a wonderful game with one of the worst designed side-quests I've ever seen in 15 years of gaming.

A lot of combat descicions so early in game are mind numbing. Including the save system.

A lore entry or a dialog optioin would help too. I love the difficulty and the fact that we are not spoon fed. But some things in this game leave me wondering what the hell was that all about.

[asagi]

There's a few reasons why this encounter is pissing me off.

1. It's the first side quest in the game with no warning about the danger. I'm just learning the mechanics and what everything does, and this is thrown at you.
2. You need prior knowledge of what will damage it (I never played pnp so i have no understanding that swarms are only effected by aoe spells). Why can't blunt weapons do at least some damage?
3. I don't get to select my party members. I'm stuck with a bard, a paladin and a barbarian.
4. Ok, it;s a tough fight, i should come back later. But the only way i can leave the fight is to reload an earlier save. Why can't i just run out of the cave, go back to town and get some equipment to damage them? I'm sure in any pnp the DM would let you run from the encounter rather then time skip back 30mins. I hate this term but this is immersion breaking.
5. And lastly, i finally beat the stupid encounter but now 2 of my characters now have permenant strength afflictions, one can't move at all. I can't leave the cave to rest. I tried the "cure afflictions" spell the barbarian has, did nothin. Now i'm stuck and have to reload again, ffs.

[RafaelElendil]

Thats why in this AP the first encounters are easy. In the TT version there is 3 difficult fights (and single fights) that are hard. The reasoning is that the AP gives time for the players to learn how to use their characters and learn the game.

On this game the DEVs decided to throw unbalanced encounters, quadrupled the number of encounters while you have to learn how to effective use 6 different characters...

Thats why trying to make this game a ARPG diablo-like dont work and so many peopl are having problem right of the bat.