How's the Actual "Kingdom Building" in this game?

[There is no Spoon]

So I know kingdom building is a big thing in this game and that is what mainly got me excited about it. I mean dont get me wrong, I love CRPGs but I kinda already have my fix with Divinity 2 and Pillars of Eternity 2. So when I heard about this game, I initially wrote it off until I heard that you can actually do kingdom building ♥♥♥♥♥. So the real question for me is how good, immersive, and in depth is it? I feel like the only two games I played that had any semblance of kingdom building was Dragon Age Inquisition and Ni No Kuni 2 and I hated them both. Why? Three reasons

#1. It was linear for both: Inquisition gave you maybe a handful of minor options on how to develop your stronghold but they were like "what do you want to build in this room, option #1 or option #2, option #1 will provide you with a handful of minor items and option #2 will provide you with minor items that are slightly different" There really wasnt much choice to it. Same with the outposts throughout the open world. Once you settled an outpost, it really just acted as a fast travel point and a rest stop but thats it. Ni No Kuni's system was also kinda linear in the buildings you created with only minor benefits to whatever choice you made,

#2. Both were not immersive and instead artificial. I was under the impression with both games that you would feel like you actually were a king/inquisitor. However when Inquisition came out, aside from the main story quests, your inqusition influence felt artificial. Camps literally had one or two guards who rarely ever moved and thats all youd see in the region. You had to go out into the world yourself and collect herbs and ♥♥♥♥, you decided what actions to do as an inquisitor through a facebook like map where you click an icon, read a little paragraph about something, make a pointless decision on some of them and wait on a timer for it to get done. When it got finished, depending on what minor options you chose on how to handle an event on the map, youd get some minor materials, or influence etc. Ni No Kuni 2 felt similar with the fact that your kingdom felt like a mobile game layout. You couldnt really see the power of your kingdom or inquisition grow and evolve, you would just be told about it and everything else remained static.

#3. Not really in depth. Both games placed a focus on building a kingdom or inquisition but really they only benefitted your main character with minor upgrades, materials, and occasionally new story related stuff. The only thing I liked about Inquisition was deciding the fate of story related characters or minor characters and acting as judge, jury, and executioner. Ni No Kuni 2 didnt really have any of that though. None of them felt like I was building a kingdom because I am a king and want to grow and develop the land around me. Both felt like "well if I build this building, it will increase my stats or if I build this building, I will get some crafting materials." Just. Fuc king. Boring.

So I have three questions for the devs (though anyone can answer if they themselves can explain it)

#1. Will Kingdom Building actually change how the map around you is shaped? Meaning if you start from nothing but a shack or one building and expand it to have multiple streets and buildings, can you actually SEE that? Like exist in your kingdom and see the land develop? Im not talking about seeing it on a world map of sorts or seeing it grow on a static picture but actually walk through your kingdom as your main character? Seeing people tending to their every day lives? Seeing farms, military buildings, etc?

#2. Will Kingdom Building give you various structures with which to create with tangible benefits that reward not just your character but give positive rewards for your kingdom as a whole? Example: Can you choose between building a defensive wall or more farmlands? The benefits for a wall could obviously be repelling bandit attacks or more farmlands means you see more people come and settle into your city.

#3. Will Kingdom Building actually be dynamic? Meaning can random events happen which could threaten your kingdom or a part of it? I.e Random bandit raids on farms or armies trying to seige your walls? Or trade disputes between you and your neighbors? Or your military patrolling the streets of your kingdom?

If the devs or anyone can provide answers to these questions, I would greatly appreciate it. I am tempted to buy this but if the kingdom building is at the end of the day just artificial or cosmetic, I think I will just stick to Pillars and Divinity as the kingdom building would not be substantive enough for me to have yet another CRPG in my game library. Dont get me wrong. I like everything else about it and the propsect of actually building a kingdom you can actually see grow and change not just on a picture or world map but in the game's actual engine is very appealing to me.. I have longed to play a game where kingdom building actually matters for the world you are in and not just for your character or solely for the plot. Any feedback for these questions is appreciated thanks

[Amigo]

This video is newer. It's in german though.
https://www.gamestar.de/videos/pathfinder-kingmaker-halb-baldurs-gate-halb-aufbauspiel-das-eigene-koenigreich-gespielt,97349.html

[ashuramarsh]

You can also check this series:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdNy7AYZ_hQ&t=1303s

[marcraft15]

Also one of the most interesting aspects for me. Thus far i liked it best in the dragon age: origins DLC. Where the choices you made actually came back (as text) at the end of the game. Informing you of the impact of your choices/ what became of your choices and companions. Neverwinter nights 2 also did a better job regarding the keep management.

[marcelvdpol]

#1. Will Kingdom Building actually change how the map around you is shaped?

Not really. You can build settlements (only one per region) and construct buildings in your settlement (which provide bonusses on Kingdom stats) but the regional map you travel through to do quests doesn't change. You cannot construct farms, roads etc to shape the surrounding map and / or land scape.


#2. Will Kingdom Building give you various structures with which to create with tangible benefits that reward not just your character but give positive rewards for your kingdom as a whole?

In a settlement you can construct different kinds of buildings and each provide different bonusses to your Kingdom stats. The Kingdom stats influence how easy / hard it is to handle Problem Events in the kingdom. They also influence how much "income" the Kingdom has (in terms of revenue from taxation). However, other than the addition to stats buildings don't do anything in game.

#3. Will Kingdom Building actually be dynamic?

Tons and tons of it. The basic idea is that there are Problems (called Events), Opportunities (called Projects). You have Councillor Positions that you need to fill with NPC's (which can be those that you can also add to your party but there are some that are not Adventurers). You can assign a Councillor to handle a Problem or Event; not all Projectsor Events can be done by all Councillors (for some you need a General, for others you need a High Priest, for others you need a Treasurer etc). Handling and prioritizing Events and Projects given the councillors you have is your main task as Ruler, as all of them require time to solve, sometimes also require money to solve and while the Councillor is busy with that Event or Project he cannot be assigned to handle something else.

Some Projects require you as Rules to actually spend 14 days focussed on that Project (time passes automatically and you cannot do anything or assign councillors during this time) but usually the Project results in a permanent increase in a Kingdom stat OR the addition of a region to your Kingdom.

##
Unfortunately, Owlcat didn't implement the Kingdom building part as it has been developed by Paizo in the PnP RPG (see the Ultimate Campaign book for the exact details) which would have been even cooler. They made it more abstract and especially the building / expansion part of the Kingdom has been made far more abstract and less detailed than I would have liked. It would have been great if you would have had a lot more buildings to choose from, could construct bigger settlements and more of them, construct new roads, forts, watchtowers , farms etc in the Kingdom. I find the Kingdom part to be so-so implemented; I like the Events and Projects but find the lack of options and details in the construction / expansion part to make the whole thing only so-so. I would have loved the fact that your Kingdom can actually shape the country more directly but this is completely missing. I would also have liked if your settlements had any actual effects in terms of what you can do; for example constructing a Military Academy might allow (re)training your feats and skills.

All in all I would have preferred something more faithful to the PnP.

[Taddl]

Originally posted by marcelvdpol:

#2. Will Kingdom Building give you various structures with which to create with tangible benefits that reward not just your character but give positive rewards for your kingdom as a whole?

In a settlement you can construct different kinds of buildings and each provide different bonusses to your Kingdom stats. The Kingdom stats influence how easy / hard it is to handle Problem Events in the kingdom. They also influence how much "income" the Kingdom has (in terms of revenue from taxation). However, other than the addition to stats buildings don't do anything in game.

There are buildings that don’t just give flag out stats, quite a few actually. Though many currently don’t really work and are only for certain alignments.

You should also mention that there currently seems to be a bug that there are zero visual changes to your kingdom management. For example even if in the management mode your capital is a bustling city with fortresses, mage towers, etc. when you walk through it it’s still just a few huts and dirt roads.

[VladK02]

How is kingdom building?

Boring, repetitive, time sink. Linear, with no real benefit. Your 'kingdom' is nothing but 10 or so health bars, called economy, military, etc., and your 'building' boils down to maxing out the hp bars, and clicking buttons periodicaly to counter hp-killing events of one repetitive kind or another.

Completely shallow and stupid aspect of the game.

Oh and the kicker is, it takes minutes to load into the management screen and load back out of it. Do that over the course of a week and you have wasted a few hours of your life staring into loading screens.

[marcelvdpol]

I see that the limitations of a computer game compared to a PnP DM (who can make up stuff on the spot) has some influence on how it is implemented, but I still think Owlcat could have done a better job.

The Kingdom aspect of this game is what makes the RPG unique; normal RPG's just have quests, walking on a map of some sorts etc but no real connection between what you do in the Questlines and how it affects the outcome for the Kingdom / people involved.

The PnP RPG did that reasonably well; while still abstract (ie your Kingdom is an excel spreadsheet) the DM is free to make stuff up on the spot. Hence, if the players want to see evidence that the unrest in the Kingdom is actually there, the DM can make that happen. The computer game, due to the nature of computer games, cannot do that and hence it must be thought of beforehand. Unfortunately, I find it lacking the right "urgency" and "flavor" compared to the PnP; I'm still going to finish this game but I would much rather have played the PnP version.

[Shahadem]

"Actual kingdom management."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

The kingdom management in the Dragon Age: Origins DLC had better implementation than in this game.