Purpose of the Banquet ceremony [SPOILERS]

[J4n1]

So, at the end of chapter 1 we have the banquet, and at the end our character kneels in front of Amandi Jaldori to be given the title of Baron on behalf of the free city of Restov.

I'm curious on the purpose of the scene, and the thought process that caused it to happen.
Now, was not the idea of us being the Baron that there could be an independent state to ally with Restov and Aldori?
So why the bestowal ceremony? It basicly makes a statement that we are subservient to Restov, or otherwise they would have no power to bestow a title on us, nor would we need to kneel to their representative.

[Jubal The Rat]

I got the impression, colored by my knowledge of medieval history, that this was Rostov formally declaring their acknowledgement and support of the new barony. "Anyone messes with them, they mess with us", basically.

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Not sure myself but, from a writing perspective, I think it was done just to make the transition from a bandit hunt to ruling a barony a little more notable than it was in the tabletop version.

Part 1 of the tabletop actually had no indication of future rulership (beyond the Adventure Path's overall title - hard to hide that that happens when you name it "Kingmaker" after all) and was just hiring expeditions for mapping/exploration of the Stolen Lands and for dealing with the Stag Lord.

Part 2 starts with the party basically just getting a letter saying "congrats; you're ruling the Stolen Lands now". Was a little... anticlimactic, honestly.

There were a lot of story points that weren't too great in the tabletop version that have been expanded on for this game (for one; part 6 is actually getting some foreshadowing now from almost the very beginning with that nymph).

EDIT: Also; it's spelt Restov[pathfinderwiki.com], not Rostov. :P

[mreed2]

This is discussed in the dialog for the scene.

You are, legally speaking, swearing loyalty to the same monarch that Rostov is "loyal" to. The intent is, Jaldori admits prior to the banquet, that you will remember who put you there and provide aid and assistance to Jaldori when they are ready to leave the kingdom -- and she also points out that, in her opinion, if you don't support her play then your new barony will be crushed almost immediately when conflict occurs between Rostov and Surena (sp?) because Surena will have no reason to protect you -- they'll just anex you along the way to attacking Rostov.

How true you feel this is... Well, that's for you to decide. But that's the motivation -- she can't simply annex the Stolen Lands because doing so would cause an immediate war, but she can establish an "independent" barony in those lands without causing an immediate war.

[J4n1]

Originally posted by Jubal The Rat:

I got the impression, colored by my knowledge of medieval history, that this was Rostov formally declaring their acknowledgement and support of the new barony. "Anyone messes with them, they mess with us", basically.

Yes, but it also sends the message of "they belong to us", which is directly contradictory to the previously stated point of us becomming a Baron.
It feels like it was written on automatic, with no real thought put into the message being sent. I could be wrong, maybe there is more to it later, we'll see.

Originally posted by Shadow88:

Not sure myself but, from a writing perspective, I think it was done just to make the transition from a bandit hunt to ruling a barony a little more notable than it was in the tabletop version.

Part 1 of the tabletop actually had no indication of future rulership (beyond the Adventure Path's overall title - hard to hide that that happens when you name it "Kingmaker" after all) and was just hiring expeditions for mapping/exploration of the Stolen Lands and for dealing with the Stag Lord.

Part 2 starts with the party basically just getting a letter saying "congrats; you're ruling the Stolen Lands now". Was a little... anticlimactic, honestly.

There were a lot of story points that weren't too great in the tabletop version that have been expanded on for this game (for one; part 6 is actually getting some foreshadowing now from almost the very beginning with that nymph).

But we already knew we were going to become ruler, it was the stated goal in, like, the first scene of the game.
The ceremony seems to add nothing, and seemingly goes against the earlier parts of the story.

Banquet, great, ceremony, sure, envoys as advisors, seems silly but i'll bite, having the title be bestoved upon you by Free city of Restov, no, does not really work.

I mean, if they had to have the ceremony, have a priest do it, show (or fake) loyalty/subservience to the gods, heck, you could be given a pick of the god whose priest comes do that ceremony for you.

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Originally posted by mreed2:

This is discussed in the dialog for the scene.

You are, legally speaking, swearing loyalty to the same monarch that Restov is "loyal" to. The intent is, Jamandi Aldori admits prior to the banquet, that you will remember who put you there and provide aid and assistance to Jamandi Aldori when they are ready to leave the kingdom -- and she also points out that, in her opinion, if you don't support her play then your new barony will be crushed almost immediately when conflict occurs between Restov and Surtova because Surtova will have no reason to protect you -- they'll just anex you along the way to attacking Restov.

How true you feel this is... Well, that's for you to decide. But that's the motivation -- she can't simply annex the Stolen Lands because doing so would cause an immediate war, but she can establish an "independent" barony in those lands without causing an immediate war.

Fixed the spelling for you. :P

[J4n1]

Originally posted by mreed2:

This is discussed in the dialog for the scene.

You are, legally speaking, swearing loyalty to the same monarch that Rostov is "loyal" to. The intent is, Jaldori admits prior to the banquet, that you will remember who put you there and provide aid and assistance to Jaldori when they are ready to leave the kingdom -- and she also points out that, in her opinion, if you don't support her play then your new barony will be crushed almost immediately when conflict occurs between Rostov and Surena (sp?) because Surena will have no reason to protect you -- they'll just anex you along the way to attacking Rostov.

How true you feel this is... Well, that's for you to decide. But that's the motivation -- she can't simply annex the Stolen Lands because doing so would cause an immediate war, but she can establish an "independent" barony in those lands without causing an immediate war.

Then the title should be given not by Restov, but by whoever is the monarchs representative, as is, we are put into subservient position when the point was to be "independent".
Or, as i made a point above, have a priest do it, a non political (in theory) entity that does not put me in a clear position in political hierarchy.

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Originally posted by J4n1:

But we already knew we were going to become ruler, it was the stated goal in, like, the first scene of the game.
The ceremony seems to add nothing, and seemingly goes against the earlier parts of the story.

Banquet, great, ceremony, sure, envoys as advisors, seems silly but i'll bite, having the title be bestoved upon you by Free city of Rastov, no, does not really work.

I mean, if they had to have the ceremony, have a priest do it, show (or fake) loyalty/subservience to the gods, heck, you could be given a pick of the god whose priest comes do that ceremony for you.

I meant make it feel more momentous than just getting a letter like you did in the tabletop version. In the original Kingmaker Adventure Path, the first the player-characters know that they're setting up a kingdom is when a letter arrives at Oleg's some time after they've killed the Stag Lord. That whole prologue bit at Jamandi's estate in this game is brand-new for this - the tabletop Kingmaker AP just started with the party arriving at Oleg's and finding Kressle and her goons trying to extort the place.

[mreed2]

Originally posted by J4n1:

Originally posted by mreed2:

This is discussed in the dialog for the scene.

You are, legally speaking, swearing loyalty to the same monarch that Rostov is "loyal" to. The intent is, Jaldori admits prior to the banquet, that you will remember who put you there and provide aid and assistance to Jaldori when they are ready to leave the kingdom -- and she also points out that, in her opinion, if you don't support her play then your new barony will be crushed almost immediately when conflict occurs between Rostov and Surena (sp?) because Surena will have no reason to protect you -- they'll just anex you along the way to attacking Rostov.

How true you feel this is... Well, that's for you to decide. But that's the motivation -- she can't simply annex the Stolen Lands because doing so would cause an immediate war, but she can establish an "independent" barony in those lands without causing an immediate war.

Then the title should be given not by Rastov, but by whoever is the monarchs representative, as is, we are put into subservient position when the point was to be "independent".
Or, as i made a point above, have a priest do it, a non political (in theory) entity that does not put me in a clear position in political hierarchy.

Surtova's crown princess was, in fact, present at the banquet and following ceremony (you get to speak to her). She was offered the opportunity to perform the ceramony and declined.

Its a political play -- she knows what Jaldori is doing, and is so unconcerned about it that she not only attends the ceremony that her not-quite-yet-but-everyone-knows rebelling subject and ignores it.

I get what youa are saying, but the way it plays out in the game is legimate.

[J4n1]

Originally posted by Shadow88:

Originally posted by J4n1:

But we already knew we were going to become ruler, it was the stated goal in, like, the first scene of the game.
The ceremony seems to add nothing, and seemingly goes against the earlier parts of the story.

Banquet, great, ceremony, sure, envoys as advisors, seems silly but i'll bite, having the title be bestoved upon you by Free city of Rastov, no, does not really work.

I mean, if they had to have the ceremony, have a priest do it, show (or fake) loyalty/subservience to the gods, heck, you could be given a pick of the god whose priest comes do that ceremony for you.

I meant make it feel more momentous than just getting a letter like you did in the tabletop version. In the original Kingmaker Adventure Path, the first the player-characters know that they're setting up a kingdom is when a letter arrives at Oleg's some time after they've killed the Stag Lord. That whole prologue bit at Jamandi's estate in this game is brand-new for this - the tabletop Kingmaker AP just started with the party arriving at Oleg's and finding Kressle and her goons trying to extort the place.

Yes, but my point is that we already had the addition of the tutorial, and we have the banquet itself (which is nice), i'm not even opposed to the ceremony, i just feel that the political implications feel out of place.

I mean, if we were becomming someones direct vassal, then kneeling to them would be perfectly reasonable (and then we can start plotting their downfall and our independence), but if we are to be independent (or just loyal to the missing royal house), having Restov bestow us the title, and us kneeling to them, seems odd.

[Procrastinating Gamer]

Originally posted by J4n1:

Originally posted by Shadow88:

I meant make it feel more momentous than just getting a letter like you did in the tabletop version. In the original Kingmaker Adventure Path, the first the player-characters know that they're setting up a kingdom is when a letter arrives at Oleg's some time after they've killed the Stag Lord. That whole prologue bit at Jamandi's estate in this game is brand-new for this - the tabletop Kingmaker AP just started with the party arriving at Oleg's and finding Kressle and her goons trying to extort the place.

Yes, but my point is that we already had the addition of the tutorial, and we have the banquet itself (which is nice), i'm not even opposed to the ceremony, i just feel that the political implications feel out of place.

I mean, if we were becomming someones direct vassal, then kneeling to them would be perfectly reasonable (and then we can start plotting their downfall and our independence), but if we are to be independent (or just loyal to the missing royal house), having Restov bestow us the title, and us kneeling to them, seems odd.

Oh I was just talking about why the ceremony and feast was there in the first place, not the specifics of what's going on there. The writers wanted something momentous and memorable for the part where you're actually becoming a baron and I guess a knighting-like ceremony was the main way they thought to do it.

That and Brevoy's laws and whatnot could be set up so that even all of this does not mean "you work for me" - the Aldori Swordlords probably use a similar ceremony when one of them has done something that lets them be formally considered a Swordlord and they can be very independent from each other.

[Stestorm [SCO]]

I saw it more as choose who you will be allied with further on in game after becoming baron..good,bad,neutral

[.O.]

personally I saw it as more of a "we as a sovereign state, now acknowledge you as official ruler of an official bit of territory"

like from a political side, it just adds legitimacy to your claim so if someone else e.g. Pitax tries to say that you're just a new bandit lord replacing the old one, the other established sovereign states can back you up.

[J4n1]

Originally posted by Stestorm SCO:

I saw it more as choose who you will be allied with further on in game after becoming baron..good,bad,neutral

That's the envoy part.
I picked the Surenian (i think that's their name, the woman anyway) envoy, partly as a ♥♥♥♥ you for making me kneel, partly because it might be good to have a way to keep an eye on Surenans and get into their heapspace a bit, and partly because i have an irrational aversion to young white haired npc men (i blame Final Fantasy), and i already have Amari oto be my general (yes, i know she might not be the best option, but i like her).

[Qrasss]

Originally posted by J4n1:

So, at the end of chapter 1 we have the banquet, and at the end our character kneels in front of Amandi Jaldori to be given the title of Baron on behalf of the free city of Restov.

I'm curious on the purpose of the scene, and the thought process that caused it to happen.
Now, was not the idea of us being the Baron that there could be an independent state to ally with Restov and Aldori?
So why the bestowal ceremony? It basicly makes a statement that we are subservient to Restov, or otherwise they would have no power to bestow a title on us, nor would we need to kneel to their representative.

Beyond some interesting lore and free xp & a free shrine in your capital not much.

Talking to Ezvanki Keeg if you can pass a diplomacy 18 check, and a Lore Religion 18 check you'll get 90 xp + the free shrine in your capital.

I guess they had to do something to make it seem legit although I agree J4N1 that the political implications feel out of place. Although if we removed the Staglord I suppose that gives us rights to the land and we'd need a noble house to declare us nobility so I guess the Aldori's beat everyone to that.

[Timbermaw]

Please stop necroing threads from 2018