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wrong because is no template for quick spiders because THEY DON'T EXIST! this is just a developer thinking he knows better, giving an enemy that is suppose to be weak to something a near immunity to that weakness to superficially add difficulty... its dumb don't defend the BS the devs
DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW CR WORKS!
It's very clear to me they have never played or DM'd an actual D&D game and hence we get utter BS homebrew templates liek Quick and Primal that make enemies WAY more difficulty then they should be.
I'm a staunch defender that they should have stuck to RAW and changing the monsters without understanding the basic premise of how CR works shows oh boy it shows...
It's not that the encounters can't be beat, but the amount of resources you have to put in to beat even basic encounters is 2-3x's higher then it should be. This encounter shouldn't require me to drop every buff in the game to beat them... that's not how CR works.
any basic encounter should only be taking 20% of your resources to win, not 100% of it.
You can create them RAW. Unless RAW in your book doesn't include the ability to apply templates and you want to use only basic creatures.
The only required buff is communal delay poison, and thats useful for spider fights anyway.
Just because a template exists doesn't mean it's a good idea to apply it to a monster...
Example!
Say there is a template(cause i'm to lazy to find them) that makes you immune to acid and fire and you apply this to a troll.
You now created a Troll who cant die... congrats you made an OP monster!
This doesn't make it a good idea to do so, players would have a fit if you threw this at them... and expected them to win when it has no weaknesses. Templates are FINE if and only if the enemy still has weaknesses to exploit! The devs in this case took an enemy that is VERY strong on its own, and then gave it an ability to COVER up it's one and only weakness. That's the issue, that's what i mean by not understanding CR and never having DM'd before, a vetern DM understands that just because its possible or exists doesn't always mean throwing it at players is a good idea.
Example!!
an ogre is a CR 3 monster... but if you throw it at a group of level 3 players someone is going to die ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ do you know why? BECAUSE at that level an ogre has a +8 to hit, at your very best in a real D&D game your fighter maybe has a 20 or 21 AC he won't have the gold for full plate, or a tower shield, and is probably still in medium armor... and this ogre? will hit him with a roll of a 10 or better in most cases. Damage? 2d8+7 that's 23 damage possible on a single hit... how much life does your fighter have? 30-40? i mean maximum 45 but since you ROLL hp he probably has far lower... so 1-2 hits from a fighter and he's dead no questions.
Just because it CAN exist doesn't mean its a good idea, and i classify quick spider under the not a good idea or concept. Primal is even worse giving every single enemy concealment? just bad design... as a DM as a player, as someone who has 25-30 years of D&D under his belt... i can safely say the Devs have no idea how to balance a D&D encounter and it's pretty obvious as they are falling into common new DM traps...
no but really swarm with evasion is pretty high up there on the "ways to kill a party and give them very little experience if it fails" table.
Yeah, but if you instead make it into a story where trolls managed to get rid of their fire vulnerabiltiy, that works just fine. Maybe not if you have a heavily fire-focused sorcerer in your group (who will run into problems with lots of monster), but normally i would say thats ok.
Quickspiders are not immune to spells, they are not even immune to reflex targeting spells. And certainly not to fort spells or spells that don't allow a reflex half roll. They are also not immune to elemental weapon damage (or holy etc).
Really don't get why this is such a problem for you, they are easy to defeat. A ranger or druid animal companion with acid maw. Anyone with a basic elemental weapon enchantment. A spellcaster not using reflex-half spells (or is uses several of them). Hell, even people using torches would work. All you need is a way to avoid poison, and that is a good idea in any fight with spiders.
Yes that would be cool for a big open eneded story all about the trolls and how they lost there weaknesses, and how you the party found a way to defeat them in an epic moment. You know what's not cool? ambushing the party with 3-4 of them and not explaining a lick of why they are immune or resistant... that's the problem, and that's issue i have.
THEY AREN'T A BIG ENEMY
it's a random enemy in the dungeon, it has zero context it's not explained it's not a boss, it's not a major battle. It's a side area, with a ton of other enemies and a random swarm thrown it for the lawl's of it.
My issue is the design of the encounter because they already explained earlier how to handle swarms and then randomly throw a new swarm at you, that goes against the very things they just taught you... like i said they aren't unbeatable, but the design is bad because they gave it resistance to the one thing it's weak against. As i said before, this is no different then giving a lycan immunity to silver, a vampre immunity to the sun/fire, or a troll immunity to acid and fire... you do not take away the players ONE avenue of victory on a random battle.
There are ways to build this enemy up, and teach the player how to deal with them ahead of time... but quite frankly the way it was introduced was absoluetly atrocious... and i'm personally against giving any kind of swarm evasion as it REMOVES the one attack that you are meant to use on them. Imagine fighting an enemy that can only be hurt by silver and the DM just giggles and is like " no is immune to silver " and as a player you ♥♥♥♥ your head in confusion... it's not immune for any story reason it's just immune because the DM is a ♥♥♥♥.
That's what this encounter feels like... the DM is a ♥♥♥♥ and just wants to kill the player.
Imagine playing DnD for 25-30 years and failing to understand how buff stacking works in pathfinder while claiming that swarms in Womb of Lamashtu are immune to weapon damage. Just imagine. What is your party? 3 Fighters, Valerie, Cleric and Jubilost?
Just having Linzie + Cleric on her own is already enough to deal with them because you have access to bull + cat + good hope + haste + bless + heroism + prayer which all stacks in this version of the game.
look, DMs can make anything they want, and as long as it makes sense and isn't designed purely to screw the PCs up, it's fine
Swarms weakness is to AoEs, right?
So making one that has better chance to defend against them is a reasonable response *at times*
and this time we are dealing with an enemy bringing crazy nasty critters from the Feywild (First World), where semi-natural critters are KNOWN for having extremely high physical stats
for example "greater enraged owbears" (now those sods HURT!)
there are spells you can use that do NOT have a Relex save, you know
I have only litle experience with those "quick swarms" (replaying game numerous times so back to 10th lvl at moment)
but have you tried Stinking Cloud on them?
or CLOUDKILL!
communal Delay Poison is a must spell
there's a specific class that has Wall of Fire type spells which allow NO save at all, pull the swrms though those or other AoEs
I do wish the devs would damn well reduce the duration of things like Spike Stones, but those are great when used smartly to pull such nasty enemies through
Chilly Midnight weapon and other stuff debuffs Dexterity, making such swarms less likely to evade AoEs (even if the weapon can't hurt it should be able to proc?)
such critters likely have a high Dexterity making Rays and Touch attack spells harder than normal but still, easier than their base Armour Class, Scorching Ray is a beaut of a spell for example
and Snowball is FORTITUDE save!!!
and you can sacrifice summoned monsters,
summon them near enemy, enemy goes for them, drop nasty spells bombs or whatever on them
USE YOUR HEAD!
Just because an enemy has a weakness doesn't mean there won't be an enemy smart enough to counter this exactly as occurs in real life, see armour vs armour piercing, tank vs anti tank etc that's went on through history and last century
Good DMs work on such, smart players seek counters
CHEATING as a DM sucks and as an OLD SCHOOL DM (tm) :p
I hate it when DMs cerate ciritters/scenarios just to kill/mess the players game up (it's why the original TOMB OF HORRORS is absolute a suck fest),
any idiot can make an unkillable or just bad encounter that upsets players
smart DMs make a critter that kicks their arses until they figure out a counter move and then the players go "ah! we beat it!" and smile in a shared triumph :)
do i really have to pull this?
- Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent. -
They are in fact IMMUNE to weapon damage, IMMUNE not resistant IMMUNE! so please don't sit and try to insinuate i don't know the rules. I also know how stacking buffs work... same types do not stack IE if you cast transformation and bulls strength you get +4 not +8, i dunno why you would insinuate i didn't understand that confusing but what ever.
Also at what point did i say i had problems with this fight? lol Dude i'm WAAAAAAAY past this section. I walked into this room, had jubilost throw his bomb, ended the swarm instantly. I had ZERO problems with this fight BUT that doesn't make it any less of a ♥♥♥♥ show, that they gave the swarm EVASION! because it's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid. Now how about you back off, take a deep breath and stop trying to act like i don't know what i'm talking about...
You do realize your melee isn't dealing weapon damage it's the ELEMENTAL damage that hurts them AND only the elemental damage. I would garner a guess that's not how it actually works, because it's damage attached to a weapon so there for it should actually do 0, now it doesn't fine cool what ever, but that doesn't take away from the actual arguement i've been making.
Which ISN'T that they can't be beat, but that giving an enemy an immunity to it's ONE weakness is a ♥♥♥♥ move, and bad DMing... and it IS bad DMing. You can make a story focused on something like that ala the troll king act which worked AND mind you they were still weak vs acid. This is a BS enemy that comes out of the woodwork has evasion and its never explained why its that way, or more importantly is no tooltip to tell the player WHY their spells and aoe's aren't working.
moving on...
Swarms are immune to most spells my sorcerer specializes in that spell i have it heightened at every level as i stated above i have zero issues with swarms... this post was not about me i was posting help on how to deal with them, but i simply agree that giving evasion to swarms is just a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up thing to do, especially so early in the game.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate),
single target spells don't work on them what so ever, they are immune to them since it's a well swarm this means only spells that can effect them are AOE's
BUT
guess what they are immune or practically immune to =3
Edit:
Are a few ways to kill them...
Alchemists using bombs
Torches(takes forever)
Elemental damage from weapons (only 1 or 2 at this point in the game)
the biggest problem is that of all of these are only 1 that has a sure fire way to kill them without requring people drag along a specific character. That's torches... these things have like 30 or 40 hp it would take you a hell of a long time to kill them with torches so i default back to my previous statement.
Giving them evasion KILLS the main way to fight them and forces players to rely on other methods. The problem is NOT everyone may have found the Trollreaper (my friend missed it as an example) not everyone will buy the flaming bastard sword for valarie...and not everyone has a ranger or alchemist in their group. They have effectively removed the primary ways to kill it and if you aren't running a specific loadout to deal with them it's not the poison that will kill you, it's the inability to kill them in a reasonable amount of time.
They don't need evasion to be difficult and giving them evasion isn't something a reaosnable DM would do. It's something a murder DM does, just to kill a party for a laugh and nothing anyone can say will change my stance on that.
and lastly!
they completely go back on what they taught you in act 1! they showed you " use alchemists fire " then in this act they basically take that method away and go " lawl not " it's just dumb...
I don't understand why are you throwing such a hissy fit about it?!
That dungeon has basically only one type of ennemy : spiders...And delay poison is all you need to defeat them (without loss) since you have elemental damages weapon by this point.
Thank you :) For a lot of player, that spell does seem to be non-existent and makes like 50% of the game much easier..I mean, I could probably stay for hours in a duel with a spider swarm as long as that spell is running and my weapon of choice is a broken knife.
Thank godness the game provides you not with weapons that have elemental damage.
..someone mentioned them first; Mandrogora swarms - if you think you've seen everything.
Learned the hard way too :) Somehow am happy, my last campaign more or less broke after chapter 4 and after the fix (stacking bug) everything went better .oO(and the learning experience..)
As a noob, i "discovered" it after this dungeon...or raher i thought it was akin to the bg neutralize poison spell... Its name is quite misleading : it doesn't "delay" poison it makes you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ immune to it...
Now i can't imagine playing without it!!