Pathfinder: Kingmaker

Pathfinder: Kingmaker

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Need some advice for a mystic Theurge necromancer
Well first , hello there !
Well i was wondering, the cleric can cast negative energy to heal the undead or damage the living, and the wizard/sorcerer can have a huge panel of debuff/buff from necromancy.

So i want to try a mystic theurge :

Ecclesitheurge/sorcerer with undead bloodline
or
Ecclesitheurge/wizard necromancy focus

But there is one problem, i dont know these class very well at high level, so i ask for some advice on "wizard necromancer or sorcerer undead bloodline" i want to create greater undead and buff them or debuff with some aoe spell ( and why not nuke one ennemy with negative energy spell ).

i will watch out for you'r advice ! thanks.

Last edited by Belial Ga'hava; Oct 5, 2018 @ 3:03am
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Showing 1-11 of 11 comments
CHAO$$$ Oct 5, 2018 @ 3:06am 
Cleric necromancy spells are amazing in general. Animate dead at rank 3 is straight up op. Great damage spells later on. Mage doesnt really have much that feels very necromancy-ish.

negative energy exists and works. There is a feat that requires 13 charisma that allows channel energy (positive or negative) not to negatively impact friendlies. (Selective channeling). So sourcerer might be worth picking over wizard just so you get the charisma.
Last edited by CHAO$$$; Oct 5, 2018 @ 3:07am
Yaldabaoth Oct 5, 2018 @ 3:09am 
You should stick to either Cleric or Sorc/wizard for that. It won't help you to split caster levels (even if only 3-4 levels). You don't heal your summons. You summon more.
best way to build an MT is probably

wiz/cleric/mt

You get your MT levels a bit faster and will get access to 15/15 divine/arcane by the end. Do understand that you will be LESS effective then a pure cleric or wizard since you are effectively losing 5 caster levels. But the sheer verstility is quite crazy, since you end up being abel to cast so many spells you can almost never run out. However this means your DC's are split between int and wisdom if you wanna be real min/maxer you do this

Empreal Sorcerer/Cleric/MT

Doing this means you can focus just on wisdom i'd also take the other archtype the summoner one i forget what its called. As you'll get 4 cleric and by doing so you get a free augument summoning feat which is super nice. That aside, i'm enjoying my MT it's not as bad as people thing it is... it really does give you some amazing versatility.

Originally posted by Yaldabaoth:
You should stick to either Cleric or Sorc/wizard for that. It won't help you to split caster levels (even if only 3-4 levels). You don't heal your summons. You summon more.

you seriously under estimate how many spells as an MT the combined spell feature is super nice, no i wouldn't run one as my main caster but makes for an interesting support class.
Last edited by AzureTheGamerKobold; Oct 5, 2018 @ 3:19am
Yaldabaoth Oct 5, 2018 @ 3:35am 
Originally posted by AzureTheGamerKobold:
Originally posted by Yaldabaoth:
You should stick to either Cleric or Sorc/wizard for that. It won't help you to split caster levels (even if only 3-4 levels). You don't heal your summons. You summon more.

you seriously under estimate how many spells as an MT the combined spell feature is super nice, no i wouldn't run one as my main caster but makes for an interesting support class.
It's great to have more spells available. However, the type of creature you summon with create undead is dependent on your caster level. If you reach only 16 or 17, you won't ever create the most powerful undead and you will always be lagging behind the power curve. Also, necromancy spells focus heavily on effects that the enemy needs to save against so you really, really want a high DC.
Belial Ga'hava Oct 5, 2018 @ 2:30pm 
Well thanks for your answser i dont realy need ninth spell tier , and i dont play in hight difficulty , just playing for fun so i dont think the power curve must be very important at some point, true ?
Blackdragon Oct 6, 2018 @ 11:49am 
Originally posted by Archein:
Well thanks for your answser i dont realy need ninth spell tier , and i dont play in hight difficulty , just playing for fun so i dont think the power curve must be very important at some point, true ?

It's not only about 9th level spells, though. At 7th level, a Wiz 3/Cleric 3/MT 1 still casts only second level spells, whereas a straight Wizard or Cleric casts 4th level spells. At 16th level, a Wiz 3/Cleric 3/MT 10 has to stop progressing one of the classes, so never reaches 8th and 9th level spells in the second class.

If you choose sorcerer as arcane chassis, it's even worse, as you're another half level behind.

So although you do get more lower-level spells, you lose a lot of highter level spells, which are the ones that actually matter. Nobody cares about your burning arc and cure moderate wounds at level 7, when the straight wizard has 8 or more fireballs and controlled fireballs available to cast, 3 of them Empowered via rod, and the straight cleric rocks Divine Power at CL 7 and cures critical wounds.

Moreover, you lose Caster levels, so all your spells hit weaker compared to straight classes.

Furthermore, you lose most of the excellent class abilities, such as bonus Wizard feats, bonus damage from Evocation Specialization, Cleric Channel Energy damage and Domain powers.

The main Sorcerer Bloodline bonus (elemental damage) you can keep, but again Sorc is a bad candidate for Mystic Theurge, unless you go for a Divine 9 build.

Empyrean Sorcerer is a trap: you get Wisdom as casting stat, but you lose Bloodline Arcana, such as +1 damage per die for Draconic Bloodlines, which makes your Sorcerer side even weaker when it is already severely behind in spell levels and caster levels.

In PnP D&D, my personal ranking of MT builds vs other caster builds went like this (from strongest to weakest):

Top tier:
Full Wizard with two or three Powerful PrCs (Incantatrix, Red Wizard, Shadowcraft mage) / Wizard with Early Entry into Mystic Theurge on Ur-Priest chassis + partial Powerful PRC (5 levels of Red Wizard, 3 levels of Incantatrix etc.)

Mid tier:
Full Wizard with One Powerful PrC / Early Entry Mystic Theurge + Arcane Hierophant (double 9th level spells)

Low tier:
Full Wizard with no or weak PrC / Full Cleric with good PrC

Bottom tier:
Regular Entry Wizard/Cleric Mystic Theurge without additional dual progression (9th level Arcane / 7th level Divine spells)

Dirt Tier:
Mystic Theurge on Sorcerer chassis without additional double-progression PrC or with crap double-progression PrC (Yathrishnee).

Special mention (God Tier): A) Ultra-tuned builds (such as triple-9 in Arcane, Divine and Psionic) which are likely to be banned by DM; B) Extreme double-progression builds that compound caster level (not available outside obscure source books).

Of all these, only Bottom and Dirt tier MT builds are available. Whereas for the Wizard/Sorcerer, there is the excellent Arcane Trickster PrC (currently top DPS build in the game).

So frankly I see no need for MT in this game. You will feel underwhelmed compared to straight casters, and especially those with a good PrC.

If you still want to play a Necromancer with both divine and arcane spells, then here is my suggestion:

Ecclesitheurge with Negative energy channel and Death domain (so you can heal yoursel and your summons at the same time, and damage living enemies; top level domain spells should be good necromancy).

Choose the other domain depending on what Arcane spells you want to cast (e.g. Fire for Fireballs, Air for Chain Lightning etc.). Ecclesitheurge's class feature lets you cast domain spells from regular spell slots.

Pick standard Aasimar as your race (+2 Wis, +2 Cha).

This will solve your MAD issues (only 1 casting stat, + Charisma for channeling), spell progression is best in game, and you get both arcane and divine spells.


Unfortunately, last time I checked, Ecclesitheurge is bugged in terms of domain spellcasting. There's also a very limited list of deities in game, so none with Fire+Death or Air+Death. Yeah, it sucks I know... You could try Death + Magic (Pharasma), or Fire + Magic (Asmodeus)... Or just pick Death and fill your slots with Necromancy.

Last edited by Blackdragon; Oct 6, 2018 @ 12:33pm
Originally posted by Yaldabaoth:
Originally posted by AzureTheGamerKobold:


you seriously under estimate how many spells as an MT the combined spell feature is super nice, no i wouldn't run one as my main caster but makes for an interesting support class.
It's great to have more spells available. However, the type of creature you summon with create undead is dependent on your caster level. If you reach only 16 or 17, you won't ever create the most powerful undead and you will always be lagging behind the power curve. Also, necromancy spells focus heavily on effects that the enemy needs to save against so you really, really want a high DC.

Yea it's not as strong as a pure arcane or divine caster... it's really not suppose to be, that's not what it's there for. But when your wizard runs out of spells, my MT still ready to fire away... that's a rather powerful class feature. You still get alot of really good spells, and while you won't get strongest undead you can summon hordes of undead far longer then your wizard counterpart...

if you just want the most powerful necromancer you probably wanna play a cleric...

If you want to be the master of magic then the MT is the way to go...it has it's flaws but it's a fun class to play! and i love it conceptually!
Weaver Oct 6, 2018 @ 1:26pm 
For a necromancer, go ecclesitheurge with a god with death and/or repose domain as first and other nice domains
Belial Ga'hava Oct 8, 2018 @ 8:02am 
Thanks for all your answer, i tried some stuff based on your multiple advise, and i'm always in the middle of my test.
I had two question who came to my mind in the middle of the test :
- eldricht scion with undead bloodline can make melee necromancer right ? (( dont know if it's a good thing thought )

-The bonus of monster tactitian work with animate dead if the spell is available ?

Thanks again for your answer !
Twitch.tv/KAEN_SG Oct 16, 2018 @ 1:26am 
Originally posted by Archein:
Thanks for all your answer, i tried some stuff based on your multiple advise, and i'm always in the middle of my test.
I had two question who came to my mind in the middle of the test :
- eldricht scion with undead bloodline can make melee necromancer right ? (( dont know if it's a good thing thought )

-The bonus of monster tactitian work with animate dead if the spell is available ?

Thanks again for your answer !

I can only comment on the Monster Tactician as I am currently doing a solo run with that class.

He does not gain access to Animate Dead or any other undead summoning spells (no elementals or nature summons either)

Even if you multiclass him.. his class feat of 1min/level summon durations will only apply to the summons he acquires via his levels in Monster Tactician. (So basically only the standard monster summoning spell tree)

TL;DR - Dipping a point into Monster Tactician will get you absolutely nothing useful and will probably harm your actual class progression.
Originally posted by Archein:
Thanks for all your answer, i tried some stuff based on your multiple advise, and i'm always in the middle of my test.
I had two question who came to my mind in the middle of the test :
- eldricht scion with undead bloodline can make melee necromancer right ? (( dont know if it's a good thing thought )

-The bonus of monster tactitian work with animate dead if the spell is available ?

Thanks again for your answer !

you eventually become undead with this, and get some good touch spells, it's not bad though you will never get any spell level above 6. You could try an EK which CAN get level 9 spells and can be pretty decent melee wise, but lacks the spell channel. I'd say this build would be excellent if spells like chill touch and ghoul touch were in the game...
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Date Posted: Oct 5, 2018 @ 3:02am
Posts: 11