Is rapier a light weapon ?

[Matt]

Hey,

I'm playing a rogue, level 3 atm, and I had planned to dual wield: rapier + short sword.

Rapier in the right hand because it has the best critical threat range.
Short sword in the left hand because it needs to be a light weapon.

(and according to this link[www.d20pfsrd.com], rapier *isn't* a light weapon)

Strangely, it doesn't seem to make a difference (in terms of attack values) if I use a rapier in the off hand instead of a short sword (which means that I'm dual wielding with 2 rapiers).

In both cases, I have +3/+3 (BAB 2 +3 from dex [weapon finesse feat] -2 because of dualwieding).

If I understand the rules correctly, I should have +3/+3 when using rapier+ss but only +1/+1 when using 2 rapiers.

Is this a bug or am I missing something ?

[Obsidian Dragoon]

From what I remember it isn't a Light weapon but is one of the few that can benefit from Weapon Finesse.

[Greybishop]

If you look to the right of the rapier listing, it has finesse as a special trait, meaning it is a light weapon. If you are duel wielding, you take a penalty to hit, even with light weapons, so you are correct.

Swap out the short sword. I am in act 4 and have only found 1 magical one (+1)

[Matt]

Originally posted by Greybishop:

If you look to the right of the rapier listing, it has finesse as a special trait, meaning it is a light weapon.

That's not how it is supposed to work. If you click that "finesse" trait, you'll get:

"Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon."

I'm aware that rapiers benefit from weapon finesse (which is why I planned rapier+short sword in the first place, my rogue being - not surprisingly - DEX focused), but the adjustment should be -4/-4 when using a rapier off hand, not -2/-2.

Edit/TLDR: The fact that rapiers can benefit from weapon finesse doesn't rule out that, with a non-light off-hand weapon, attack maluses should be -4/-4 and not -2/-2 .

[Greybishop]

Originally posted by Matt:

Originally posted by Greybishop:

If you look to the right of the rapier listing, it has finesse as a special trait, meaning it is a light weapon.

That's not how it is supposed to work. If you click that "finesse" trait, you'll get:

"Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon."

I'm aware that rapiers benefit from weapon finesse (which is why I planned rapier+short sword in the first place, my rogue being - not surprisingly - DEX focused), but the adjustment should be -4/-4 when using a rapier off hand, not -2/-2.

Oh. I didn't see the double rapier part. My bad. Uhh. I guess that is a bug, if it is only for attack rolls and not as a light weapon as a whole. Oversight maybe?

[starkmaddness]

Correct. Rapier is finessable, but not a light weapon, so not suitable for the off-hand.

Either they made the rapier light to avoid creating a special finesse exception, or it is a bug. Either way, that is not how it is supposed to work in pathfinder/dnd.

[Matt]

Well, right now rapier is treated as a light weapon, since it doesn't incur a penality to wield one in the off hand.

Which means that it's possible to dual wield 2 rapiers with no more penality that if you dual wielded rapier + short sword, which saves a few feats (you just need to pick WF and improved critical for 1 weapon type instead of 2).

Problem is: If it's a bug, it's likely to be corrected in a future patch, so it may be unwise to plan a build that specialises only in rapiers.

Edit: Thanks for the clarification, starkmaddness. I wish we had a way to ask the devs about that.

[Recrusive Thoughts]

@Matt, it's not a bug, when used with Weapon Finesse feat, a Rapier in the off hand counts as a light weapon. This is how it is in Tabletop/PnP pathfinder. I don't think they will change it for the game, as it currently works as intended in the PnP.

It appears they made the weapon light all the time, which is divergent from the PnP but that really does make it much simpler for them to program. So I am guessing it was intentional to make it this way so they could keep to the PnP rules as much as possible without having to program complicated equipment rules for such a small group of weapons (think there are only 3 or 4 weapons that aren't light that count as light when used with Weapon Finesse).

[Matt]

Originally posted by howardwillard:

@Matt, it's not a bug, when used with Weapon Finesse feat, a Rapier in the off hand counts as a light weapon. This is how it is in Tabletop/PnP pathfinder. I don't think they will change it for the game, as it currently works as intended in the PnP.

Oh, that's great. Could you provide a link to the PnP rules/FAQ where this is stated please ?
(unless I'm wrong, there's no mention about this ingame)

I've never played pathfinder. Most similar game I played is IWD2, and that was quite some time ago... Right now, I must say I'm having quite a blast discovering all those new rules.

Edit: What about this[paizo.com] ? It seems to be contradicting what you're writting and this is the only related link that I could find. I wish you are right, though, hehe.

[Matt]

Originally posted by howardwillard:

@Matt, it's not a bug, when used with Weapon Finesse feat, a Rapier in the off hand counts as a light weapon. This is how it is in Tabletop/PnP pathfinder.

Bump. Can someone please confirm this, preferably with a link to the relevant PnP rule/FAQ ?

[CHAO$$$]

rapier is a light weapon.

[Cain]

Originally posted by CHAO$$$:

rapier is a light weapon.

No, it's not.

It's a one handed martial melee weapon which special feature is finesse.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/rapier

"You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. "

[Matt]

I agree with you Cain, but your links don't give an answer to my question.

The thing is, howardwillard is stating that, according to the PnP rules, dual wielding rapiers *and* having the weapon finesse feat should result in a -2/-2 to attack instead of -4/-4. Reason for this being that, although rapier isn't a light weapon, when used with Weapon Finesse feat, a Rapier in the off hand counts as a light weapon.

I'm asking for a confirmation of the emphasized above statement, since it contradicts all that I have been able to find on the internet.

[The Silver Santana]

I mean. I'm sorry to say, but the explanation is he's wrong. Rapiers are still not light weapons, you can just use them with weapon finesse. It would mean basically nothing if they were counted as light weapons in all ways as long as you used them with weapon finesse; they'd just be light weapons then (unless you were STR based, I suppose). Regardless, that's not the way it works.

Tl;DR You should be taking -4 to both attacks. Rapiers are not light. Rapiers juse use DEX to attack. The end.

I'd probably switch out the rapier for duel wielding shortswords, in fear of it being fixed. Or simply accept that you won't have the full feat tree for both weapons.

[Matt]

Originally posted by The Silver Santana:

I mean. I'm sorry to say, but the explanation is he's wrong. Rapiers are still not light weapons, you can just use them with weapon finesse. It would mean basically nothing if they were counted as light weapons in all ways as long as you used them with weapon finesse; they'd just be light weapons then (unless you were STR based, I suppose). Regardless, that's not the way it works.

Tl;DR You should be taking -4 to both attacks. Rapiers are not light. Rapiers juse use DEX to attack. The end.

I'd probably switch out the rapier for duel wielding shortswords, in fear of it being fixed. Or simply accept that you won't have the full feat tree for both weapons.

This explanation is much more consistant with what I've read elsewhere. I guess some PnP players are allowed by their GMs to dual wield rapiers while only incuring -2/-2 maluses, but this isn't in accordance with the rules.

Also, you exactly pinpoint what my problem is atm: Rapiers for best efficiency, or short swords by fear that this bug is fixed at some point (or both, at the cost of 2 more "needed" feats). I'm tempted to postpone my decision by taking precise strike at level 3 (that looks like a solid feat, even tho its effect will probably be less noticeable at high level), but the problem will arise again when I reach level 5 ;)

Edit: Rather than spending 2 more feats on rapiers/short swords, I'd better go for waveblade or drow razor, assuming there are some in the game. I'm trying to maximize crits, so that allies can gain the best possible benefit from outflank.

Edit2: Hum, those weapons aren't implemented so that's not an option.

[Cain]

Originally posted by The Silver Santana:

Tl;DR You should be taking -4 to both attacks. Rapiers are not light. Rapiers juse use DEX to attack. The end.

This. I double-checked both the two-weapon fighting rules, both the rules for the rapier. It's not working like a light weapon in the P&P.

BTW, I don't understand why people too lazy to read the rules answer rules questions. :-/