Deal With the Devil [Quest] - Critique

[Slunko]

This is an RPG game. So it really upsets me as a RPG fan and as a long-time table top D&D player when I'm shoe horned into a scenario where I have no influence or effect over a quest, with absolutely nothing to at least cover it up.

Now I get it, you make a quest and you want to show us how badass your random NPC is. And you also sometimes get lazy and don't want to write and code different paths for the said quest. But at least have the decency to cover it up.

Most other quests only really have the illusion of choice, but at least the illusion is there. This one though? I have Hellknights rampaging through my lawful kingdom with me not being able to propose a reasonable way of them dealing with it all, only blindly agreeing with their obvious stupidity or kicking them out. But that's really not the main problem here. The greatest issue here arises when you end up in the secluded lodge...

*Spoilers ahead, if it wasn't clear already*

...Not only is there NO way to avoid fighting the hellknights, which by the way, should be simple as all hell by the protagonist choosing different words or explaining himself before deciding to butcher them all, it also ends up by the most ridiculous conclusions to this part of the quest...
The fugitive they were after, who so cunningly "tricks" the protagonist (because we have NO other choice but to be tricked, so... slow clap for that one.) then (even if he died during combat to a KILL SPELL!) simply gets up, delivers his cunning and coy villain line, and proceeds to simply cast greater invisibility and vanish.

This all would pretty much be horrible as it stands. But I came prepared for the trickster. I had my communal See Invisibility on. I also had True Sight on. This would have been a good way to allow us to anticipate the trickster's move as we saw him preform illusionary spells before to hide his true plans, but no. See invisibility does nothing. The man simply isn't there. That's it.

And so we are railroaded onwards to the next part of this grind fest, while entirely shattering our immersion and lowering the expectations of future fun choices by another notch.


Now, before anyone loses their minds and decides to throw all sorts of unhelpful comments down under this post...

...please don't. This pointless side quest has simply upset me enough to write something a developer will perhaps read and something may come of it. The topic is not here to upset anyone. Feel free to disagree, just... keep it civil people. Comments like "You don't have to do the quest if you don't like it." are ridiculous at best. I'm hoping most people at least somewhere deep down understand that.

[jonlevir]

Yeah, it's not optional at all. It's a kingdom event, and it's the worst railroading I can remember from a CRPG.

[ernstvh]

Originally posted by mreed2:

If you aren't playing with invulnerable kingdom, most likely -- depending on when it fails, you'll either get weekly -1 to all stats (not survivable long term) or monthly -1 to all stats (survivable).

Even if you have invulnerable kingdom turned on, it'll get very, very annoying, as the events will keep popping up to notify you that your stats have been reduced.

Yes, I get the annoying messages every week that the people are annoyed at the Hellknights, and the note that Linxia is questioning the people (though not as harshly as before) still appears in my Events menu. But I used the cheat engine to raise my stats after the bugs destroyed my first playthrough.

So this quest must be completed for the main story to advance? If so, that's very disappointing to once again get very far into the game (level 16 this run) only to have to start over.

[balancer1]

This quest sucked for me, my King was around level 14 (Turned off exp sharing and turned on skill monkey gets the exp) LG Paladin of Iomedae, I've killed a lich cyclops with the backing of the Horsemen of the Appocalypse, I've cut my way through a army of bandits, I've killed a Crag Linnorm BY MYSELF and could probably build a mountain of skulls higher than my city walls. But when this obviously evil group of hellknights comes into MY kingdom and starts beating on MY citizens I can't do anything to stop them. Like excuse me? I gave my guards an order, you're under arrest you can't just stroll away.

If this were at the table that would be the part when I smite the lictor and ram my longsword through her chest and suplex her cronies to Hell. You don't come into my lands, torture my citizens, ignore my decrees and just walk away like nothing happened.

And no, there is no way I'm going to allow a kingdom to be set up on my doorstep worshipping one of the ARCHFEINDS OF HELL. Best be prepared for a little preemptive crusade you priate scum cause you're getting annexed for your own good, enjoy being king for day.

[mreed2]

Originally posted by ernstvh:

Originally posted by mreed2:

If you aren't playing with invulnerable kingdom, most likely -- depending on when it fails, you'll either get weekly -1 to all stats (not survivable long term) or monthly -1 to all stats (survivable).

Even if you have invulnerable kingdom turned on, it'll get very, very annoying, as the events will keep popping up to notify you that your stats have been reduced.

Yes, I get the annoying messages every week that the people are annoyed at the Hellknights, and the note that Linxia is questioning the people (though not as harshly as before) still appears in my Events menu. But I used the cheat engine to raise my stats after the bugs destroyed my first playthrough.

So this quest must be completed for the main story to advance? If so, that's very disappointing to once again get very far into the game (level 16 this run) only to have to start over.

I don't know for certain, but I suspect that if you are using invulnerable kingdom or are willing to keep bumping your stats up that you can continue without completing this quest.

[Dulkan]

Wow, I'm just on this querst and it upset me enough to post about it as well. Hnoestly, what were the devs thinking putting this quest into the game in the state that it is in?!

I'm playing lawful evil and I already have a hellknight order resident in my realm due to a prior event. Linxia should know, I symphatize with the hell knights and there isn't even a mention of the other hell knights. I eagerly agreed to let her do that investigation and waited for the result. People on the street were whining about the interrogation, I told the hellnkights to do their job. Lawful evil, just how I like it. Two weeks pass, I get a penalty to loyalty and community. Fine, a price I'll gladly pay for order in my realm. A month passes, another penalty, still no result. I get suspicious, I google the quest. I decide to let four months pass and still the same two hellknight groups were interrogating the same citizens, while I accumulated a total of -40 loyalty and -16 community. That's the point, where I get upset.

To continue this quest, I am FORCED to take a chaotic good option (my opposite alignment!), otherwise I'll just be hit with -5 loyalty and -2 community every two weeks forever. Or at the very least, I'd be forced to take massive penalties for an unresonably long time (a month investigation should be more than enough).

The rest of the quest is very well described by Slunko.

I mean, honestly, what is the point of putting this quest in this state? The game does such a good job for the most part to allow playthroughs of any alignment and then comes along this quest, which isn't even optional and not only forces you to be good to progress, but also forces you to become a gullible idiot in Darvens plans.

[Moos]

I'm also very upset with this quest, I'm too strong to allow these Hellknights to do whatever they want in my Kingdom. I have no doubt I could kill their whole army all by myself and when I order my strong guards to arrest them I want them to be arrested or killed in a fight. I don't like any of the options that are forced upon me here.

[dwarfpcfan]

This is the only quest in the game that really pissed me off as a Sage Sorcerer level 14, I do not have to listen to these idiots. Once they disobey my commands I should have the options to annihilate them in front of my subjects in the capital with a well placed area spell and be done with it. The worst part is the actual fight with the hellknights is a joke, so trivially easy that there's no way these idiots would be able to do any of the stuff they pull.

[Grimenart]

This quest alone gives me an idea for a negative review for the game

[Moos]

Originally posted by dwarfpcfan:

This is the only quest in the game that really pissed me off as a Sage Sorcerer level 14, I do not have to listen to these idiots. Once they disobey my commands I should have the options to annihilate them in front of my subjects in the capital with a well placed area spell and be done with it. The worst part is the actual fight with the hellknights is a joke, so trivially easy that there's no way these idiots would be able to do any of the stuff they pull.

After running into the Wearrats at level 3 I have yet to find a hard fight, everything is easy, no need to micro manage anything at all, just pew pew pew and collect the loot.

[jonlevir]

Originally posted by Grimenart:

This quest alone gives me an idea for a negative review for the game

You should! It wouldn't be the first: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198098623086/recommended/640820

[Tanlaus]

I love this game, and while I’m not ready to shelve it because of this quest myself, I was a little disappointed with the choices given.

Playing a Paladin I wasn’t really keen to support either side, and thought it was strangely awkward that the “good” choices consisted of helping a pirate found a city dedicated to Mammon on my border.

I get that bug fixing is the priority right now, but after this could definitely stand to be revisited.

[Mapleswitch]

I've been playing on the hardest (achievement-linked) difficulty. I reloaded about 3 months back to a previous save after failing to side with the knights of the rack to see if i chose a wrong option and have just run through it again. i particularly hate the interaction in the town, because even if you choose to attack D twice and take all the most negative discussion options, it still makes you side with him in the bar. I figured I somehow screwed up again, so I went looking on the forums and came across this. QQ

[Taddl]

Originally posted by Mapleswitch:

I've been playing on the hardest (achievement-linked) difficulty. I reloaded about 3 months back to a previous save after failing to side with the knights of the rack to see if i chose a wrong option and have just run through it again. i particularly hate the interaction in the town, because even if you choose to attack D twice and take all the most negative discussion options, it still makes you side with him in the bar. I figured I somehow screwed up again, so I went looking on the forums and came across this. QQ

On that note I just read through the development spotlight and there was this passage:

If you have decided to help Linxia and despite all odds secured an alliance with her, you will be granted a project that occasionally makes status better (up until Worried). This project also makes Last Resort better.

So I guess it is in some way possible to side with the knights, or it is supposed to be possible but bugged.

[BlueBangkok]

Originally posted by Dulkan:

Wow, I'm just on this querst and it upset me enough to post about it as well. Hnoestly, what were the devs thinking putting this quest into the game in the state that it is in?!

The devs weren't thinking, that is the problem. The game is filled with amateurish stuff like this (though this quest is the worst of it by FAR) and it's a damn shame because the game has so much potential... sorry, HAD so much potential - there is so much broken or badly designed stuff in this game that it would take another 1-2 years to get it into shape.

I will never, ever purchase a game on release date again. I've really learned my lesson this time. I will not give full price to anyone, not Owlcat, certainly not a triple-A dev, not even CDPR, no one... I will wait for patches, DLCs, GOTYs, sales, and so on... I'm sick and tired of paying for being a beta tester and then, 100 hours in, a complete lunacy like this pops up.

[dwarfpcfan]

Originally posted by Moos:

After running into the Wearrats at level 3 I have yet to find a hard fight, everything is easy, no need to micro manage anything at all, just pew pew pew and collect the loot.

true however, the comment itself isn't about the ease of the game in terms of game/play as that can be adjusted but in terms of in-game/character world what this level.

Golarion for all the weirdness some of it's corners hold is a typical dnd style fantasy setting. And in such a world a level 14 sorcerer is one of most powerful spellcasters in his world. He's able to kills armies solo with judicious application of spells. And this is a KING. He's got an army and advisors of similar power including at least 3 spellcasters of equal power. These hellknights should be able to just walk around and ignore you. In any logical story or setting if they even tried their nonsense, they would be at best in chains bound and gagged in solitary isolation with magical wards keeping them trapped.