Vivisectionist /Rogue help

[Rake]

Hello,
I was reading forum and found some interesting builds but im not experienced enaugh to choose the best one or the one that would be most fun. Last time I played such game was in time of Baldurs gate or Planescape Torment thats why i totaly dont hava idea about most of proficiencies and what races are good for builds. Could someone give me advice about melee character with good dmg that could be my MC and it could be very active playstyle.

knife master 1/barb2/monk 1/vivisectionist 16 with sai
Knife Master4/Vivisectionist16 with kukris
knife master 3 and barb invulnerable rager with kukris
pure Rogue
or Pure 2H fighter

Could someon help me with which one is best/viable and what would be level progression stats and race?

any help will be great and ill be very thankfull

Regards

[timechef]

If you're going knife master, you'll want to take 3 levels so you can get Dex to damage. That'll let you completely dump Str down as low as it'll go. Take a small race (halfling would work quite well) for bonus to AC and attack. Vivisectionist will pair well for the mutagen and some buffs.

2H fighter is about as simple as it gets. Put your points in Str and Con, and you can safely dump Cha (Int needs to be at least 13 for combat expertise). Any non-small race with a bonus to Str or Con will do well.

[schachlik]

When u first start with your rogue pic Viv at level 2. The mutagens are very powerfull. For offense and defence. After that i would suggest to level your rogue to level 3 for DEX-dmgscaling. i think that would i do in the early game. Rogue/Alchemist combo or a combo from the subclasses can be very powerful.

[Rake]

Could I play other race than small one? im not a fan of halflings more like humans/elves ... Is there a good choise?
Than its 1 rogue 1 viv than 2 rogue and rest viv?

Regarding stats max dex and what about rest stats? how much would i need?

[timechef]

You could play another race. Humans are always OK for the bonus feat. If you're trying to min/max though, halfling is the way to go.

Max Dex, keep Con and Int decent. Cha doesn't matter. Wis also doesn't, but you don't want a negative modifier. Put all the points from levelup into Dex and prioritize +Dex equipment.

You could stay with vivisectionist for a better mutagen. More rogue will get you talents though. Check out the classes to see if there are any specific abilities you want to try to get.

[schachlik]

Espeacally elves are suited for Rogue/Alchemist because they get a DEX and INT bonus... well these are u 2 main stats so thats fantastic. i think in gerneral humans are a good alround class. So if u want to play and elve/human or half-elv its fine. After your Rogue is level 3 and u got mutagens from the level 1 viv its completly up to u how u want to focus the rest of your levels.
For this hybrid i recommed at least 18 dex and 14 int. The rest of your points u can spend as u want. If u want to go melee u should pic a few points in KON.

[Rake]

ok than

human
str 7
dex 20
con 13
int 16
wis 13
cha 7

would it be good?

than ill start as knife master than pick one level of viv and than knife to level 3 and than rest would bo viv?

what is the diference in playstyle if i pick rest of viv or rest of knife master(than it would be only one viv) ?

[schachlik]

If u put more points in rogue u will get more roguetalents to pic, more skillpoints and a little bit more lifeponits than a viv. If u focus on viv u can get more alchemist talents/selfbuff focus like getting better mutagens etc.

[Rake]

but what impact it have on fighting/dmg for example?

[schachlik]

well thats a hard question, because it will matter what talent u pic. For example a rogue can pic the talent for sneaking in full speed/avoid nasty debuffs while attacking or debuff enemys with status effects. Viv is more like self buff and selfprotection to boost u dmg or to protect u from dmg or to support u in different ways.

[Rake]

Than if i would like to go more dmg road than Viv is way to go or maybe rogue/barb ?

[wulfster42]

A rouge is good to have in your party, but you don't need that many rogue levels to make it work fairly well.

Rogues pair well with:

Monks (especially scaled fist) as they get Cha to AC, bonus feats etc.
Paladins they get Cha to saving throws, and martial weapons
Fighters martial weapons, bonus feats, full bab etc.
Alchemists (mutagen boosts dex).

Rogues can go pure dex with the knife buidls, or....without really changing stats THAT much, go with a ranged rogue. You do a bit less damage but, you do it from range. Works especially well if your other characters all have animal companions.

Your rogue can get VERY high AC..which is good, and has evasion (And can get extremely high evasion saves)...which is great. Especially in the back when you have deflect arrows as well.

A simple easy way to make a ranged monk is to go something like this:

First level Rogue (for all the skill points, 1d6 sneak attack etc. First level goes by so fast.
Second and third level Paladin (for divine grace). With eagles on and an 18 starting cha, that is +6 to all saves.
4th level monk (scaled fist), gives you a bonus feat and cha to AC. +1 to dex this level as well. With 6 ac from dex and 6 ac from cha and mages armor (4 ac) that is a base 26 ac at that point with no other spells/bonuses.
5th level rogue (nets you evasion helps you keep important skills up, though you will always keep trickery maxed. I don't suggest you try and have this character be your perception character though. A Inquisitor (the one with the animal companion, or the monster summoning one) is your best perception character (decent wis and a bonus from class).

After that you can take either fighter levels, alchemists levels (one that adds 1d6 sneak attack...only need 1 for +2 dex from mutagen)) more rogue levels (easier to keep skills up), one more pally level (gives precise shot to everyone) etc.

Tons of ways to go...but it gives you a very high damage ranged character that can handle any trickery stuff. It is the only char I have without an animal companion (and also my main). Deals significantly more ranged damage then the rest (I didn't go with the mutagen potion setup, but with 3 pally levels instead giving everyone else precise shot for free).

End game my char will be:

Rogue 3/Pally3/Monk 1/Fighter 13

2 of my other chars are sylvian sorcs (xbow users but precise shot helps them alot as they don't use feats for ranged combat...but for spells)

2 of my chars are animal domain crusader clerics (bow specialists) Bonus feats of martial weapon prof/weapon focus/weapon spec/improved crit/greater weapon spec).

Last character is a monster summoning inquisitor with animal domain. He has high perception to complement my main chars high (very high) trickery skill.

Main character also has a very high persuasion skill. Nobody has any use magic device or stealth but......all the other skills are covered by at least one.

More rogue levels are not.....horrible as fighter levels don't do THAT much. The armor bonuses are wasted as your not using armor (monk levels), and the weapon focus bonuses, while nice, are small compared to all the others. You need 12 fighter levels though to get greater weapon spec...which is very nice. Could drop 1...and get monk 2 (for another bonus feat), but doesn't seem worth it to me.

Dropping a few fighter levels for rogue levels though can work as rogue bonus skills while not as often, can be used for fighter bonus skills. Could drop all the way down to 4 fighter levels (weapon spec) and go with a ton of rogue levels for more sneak attack.

I like going with the fighter levels because.

With 3 rogue/1 monk , you lose only 2 BAB, so get the full 4 attacks end game (base...5 with rapid shot and 6 with haste). More rogue can make you lose the 4th attack all together.

Don't need improved evasion at all with such high saves (same with the iron will or whatever the re-roll will saves one is etc).

you can keep your skills up just fine with just 3 rogue levels.

Fighters pure bonus is ALWAYS, not only when enemies are flanked etc. 13 levels gives you +5 to hit and +7 damage total....even if you shoot first (Like Han).

Fighters get more hp per level.

More bonus feats (you get a ton this way).

Pally btw auto gives you precise shot yourself at level 1, and gives it to your companions within 10 feet (all of them if they are all ranged) at 3.

Most, not all but most...of the spells that do damage and have saves, are reflex saves so with pally+ rogue evasion....you are immune to a ton of damage spells. Fireballs for instance.

Ac gets pretty insane since it's your main as well (even with just level 2 buffs). It's quite easy to have a higher AC then pure fighters even (who generally get the highest AC otherwise).

Go Asimar btw (Dex/Cha) so you can get wings later as well (+3 ac) and drop wis to 7 (you'll get plenty of saves from cha). I went with 8 int as well (drops you 1 skill point every other level which is fine..you still get plenty to start (don't waste points on perception, get an inquisitor for that) max mobility/trickery/persuasion and 1 more (think I went with athletics but don't remember).

Above setup gives you 4d6 sneak attack btw......could get more a few ways, but over all the build is pretty insane and versatile.

[Rake]

Originally posted by wulfster42:

A rouge is good to have in your party, but you don't need that many rogue levels to make it work fairly well.

Rogues pair well with:

Monks (especially scaled fist) as they get Cha to AC, bonus feats etc.
Paladins they get Cha to saving throws, and martial weapons
Fighters martial weapons, bonus feats, full bab etc.
Alchemists (mutagen boosts dex).

Rogues can go pure dex with the knife buidls, or....without really changing stats THAT much, go with a ranged rogue. You do a bit less damage but, you do it from range. Works especially well if your other characters all have animal companions.

Your rogue can get VERY high AC..which is good, and has evasion (And can get extremely high evasion saves)...which is great. Especially in the back when you have deflect arrows as well.

A simple easy way to make a ranged monk is to go something like this:

First level Rogue (for all the skill points, 1d6 sneak attack etc. First level goes by so fast.
Second and third level Paladin (for divine grace). With eagles on and an 18 starting cha, that is +6 to all saves.
4th level monk (scaled fist), gives you a bonus feat and cha to AC. +1 to dex this level as well. With 6 ac from dex and 6 ac from cha and mages armor (4 ac) that is a base 26 ac at that point with no other spells/bonuses.
5th level rogue (nets you evasion helps you keep important skills up, though you will always keep trickery maxed. I don't suggest you try and have this character be your perception character though. A Inquisitor (the one with the animal companion, or the monster summoning one) is your best perception character (decent wis and a bonus from class).

After that you can take either fighter levels, alchemists levels (one that adds 1d6 sneak attack...only need 1 for +2 dex from mutagen)) more rogue levels (easier to keep skills up), one more pally level (gives precise shot to everyone) etc.

Tons of ways to go...but it gives you a very high damage ranged character that can handle any trickery stuff. It is the only char I have without an animal companion (and also my main). Deals significantly more ranged damage then the rest (I didn't go with the mutagen potion setup, but with 3 pally levels instead giving everyone else precise shot for free).

End game my char will be:

Rogue 3/Pally3/Monk 1/Fighter 13

2 of my other chars are sylvian sorcs (xbow users but precise shot helps them alot as they don't use feats for ranged combat...but for spells)

2 of my chars are animal domain crusader clerics (bow specialists) Bonus feats of martial weapon prof/weapon focus/weapon spec/improved crit/greater weapon spec).

Last character is a monster summoning inquisitor with animal domain. He has high perception to complement my main chars high (very high) trickery skill.

Main character also has a very high persuasion skill. Nobody has any use magic device or stealth but......all the other skills are covered by at least one.

More rogue levels are not.....horrible as fighter levels don't do THAT much. The armor bonuses are wasted as your not using armor (monk levels), and the weapon focus bonuses, while nice, are small compared to all the others. You need 12 fighter levels though to get greater weapon spec...which is very nice. Could drop 1...and get monk 2 (for another bonus feat), but doesn't seem worth it to me.

Dropping a few fighter levels for rogue levels though can work as rogue bonus skills while not as often, can be used for fighter bonus skills. Could drop all the way down to 4 fighter levels (weapon spec) and go with a ton of rogue levels for more sneak attack.

I like going with the fighter levels because.

With 3 rogue/1 monk , you lose only 2 BAB, so get the full 4 attacks end game (base...5 with rapid shot and 6 with haste). More rogue can make you lose the 4th attack all together.

Don't need improved evasion at all with such high saves (same with the iron will or whatever the re-roll will saves one is etc).

you can keep your skills up just fine with just 3 rogue levels.

Fighters pure bonus is ALWAYS, not only when enemies are flanked etc. 13 levels gives you +5 to hit and +7 damage total....even if you shoot first (Like Han).

Fighters get more hp per level.

More bonus feats (you get a ton this way).

Pally btw auto gives you precise shot yourself at level 1, and gives it to your companions within 10 feet (all of them if they are all ranged) at 3.

Most, not all but most...of the spells that do damage and have saves, are reflex saves so with pally+ rogue evasion....you are immune to a ton of damage spells. Fireballs for instance.

Ac gets pretty insane since it's your main as well (even with just level 2 buffs). It's quite easy to have a higher AC then pure fighters even (who generally get the highest AC otherwise).

Go Asimar btw (Dex/Cha) so you can get wings later as well (+3 ac) and drop wis to 7 (you'll get plenty of saves from cha). I went with 8 int as well (drops you 1 skill point every other level which is fine..you still get plenty to start (don't waste points on perception, get an inquisitor for that) max mobility/trickery/persuasion and 1 more (think I went with athletics but don't remember).

Above setup gives you 4d6 sneak attack btw......could get more a few ways, but over all the build is pretty insane and versatile.

thanks for great answer, this build looks very good. Problem is that i just love to play melee character. I just want very high melee dmg dealer that is ok early and strong late game but i totaly dont know this system. Any proposal would be great that deals tons of dmg and require from me much attention. Could You help me with that i thought that rogue/viv is answet but maybe there is someon else who would be better at that?

[Rake]

I would like to use this kukri weapons and what class combination would be best to get as much possible dmg from those weapons? i heard about this roge/viv or rogue barb? but maybe something else would be better? would arcane trickster do more dmg?

[jutschi78]

Lets come back to the pure Rogue or Knifemaster)/Vivisectionist

Well i think you should alyaws get 4 lvl in both.

Rogue gives you dex on damge and diliberate attack (both a malus to ac or attackrolls are really nice) at lvl 4

Vivisectionist gives you lvl2 extracts at lvl 4, wich are really useful.

I am not sure, what build would be better 4 Rogue/16 Vivectionist or vice versa...

Rogue gives you more combat-feats, greater rogue tricks and an empowerd deliberatet attack - and more versaility to weapons for your dex to dmg.

vivectionist gives you more extracts and a better mutagen


For stats i would go (without racial)

Str. 12
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 15
Wis 12
Cha 7

All races that gives a dex bonus are great. You could consider an Elf because the bonus to the two main stats and perception , although to lose Con hurts...

I would not dump str! you need some to carry things. you want always light encoumbance!


A nice other build would be Thug/Vivisectionist, for power attack and cornugon Strike (or whatever name the talent have, that gives you a free demoralize check on successdul power attacks) its a more debuffing build and need other stats (without racial)

Str. 13
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 12

Here you can take an Halfelf and skillfokus persuation. as you level up: one point into int and 4 into dex.

As you would relay on power attacks and with your sligthly lower dex, take a bard along: Heroism and inspire courage are important for your attackroll. Weaponfokus (shortsword or wichs weapon you prefer, i think shorswords are solid, kukri are better crit wise, but need an extra feat to take) and outflank helps a lot (you need at least one other Companion with outflank. Since flanking is quite easy, every melee char shoud cinsider to take it. You should use your deliberate attack to lower the ac of your emeny for a better hitchance of your next attacks.

In both cases i would take: lvl 1 Rogue, lvl 2 vivi, lvl 3-5 rouge, lvl 6-8: vivi and the rest, as you prefer more rogue or vivi

[Rake]

I totaly dont know that this vivisectionist is all about , will more rogue levels grants more dmg or those mutagens will make it hit harder? or maybe some kind of rogue/barbarian or rogue/fighter or 2h fighter will outdamage that?