Best healer/tank build - Cleric or Paladin?

[monkbel]

What do you guys think about the best custom character build to be the main healer in the party, in addition to be able to do some combat? I want to dump Harrim and replace him with a better char.

Cleric has Crusader subclass which is pretty good in melee. They also have Ecclethiurge which is great.

Paladin has Hospitaler subclass which is not very clear. Paladins are better fighters but worse healers.

Your thoughts, preferences?

[Winterclaw42]

Clerics are always going to be better healers than Pallys.

Now if you are talking about being a meat sheild, pallys can self heal as a quick action with lay on hands and they start with heavy armor proficiency. It doesn't take up time or incur an attack of opportunity. He still isn't going to heal as much, but it'll be a "safer" form of heal that he can do while attacking.

[Zivi]

I think crusader would be the best heal/tank because he can cast tier 9 cleric spells and is tanky.
Ecclethiurge is more like a damage/heal combo i think.
Hospitaler is as a paladin not very good at healing in my opinion.

Btw the main problem is normaly not the dmg coming in but the special effects you have to counter.

[Weaver]

Ecclesitheurge is a caster specialist.

It CANT use armor and cast spell, it's like a cleric / mystic theurge by himself, it's not meant to be a tank or melee at all

[Finrod]

If you want to heal a lot, I would say go for a normal cleric or ecclesitheurge, with a god that has healing domain: starting at level 6, all cure spell are automatically empowered (dice value +50%).
Healing domain god include pharasma, Iomedae I think.
Plus pharasma has repose domain, this protects in area against negative energy things.

[Caedwyn]

I've been really enjoying my Paladin as an off-tank/damage/off-healer.

His healing output is random af, but his damage is ridiculous, and he can tank reasonably well in full plate +2.

[TEMPIEST]

There is not happy medium here. Crusader will heal more that can tank and Paladin will tank more than can heal. Hospitaler is a Paladine who wanted to be crusader and Fail, cant recomend.

Note: I can recomend the Paladin as a tank/offhealer and then Tristan as main healer. Thats is how my team is and work perfect. But remember Paladin dont tank well until level 7, because of the slow gain feats and limited feat. Their are way better in saving throw than anyone, which get very important in high levels.

[wulfster42]

Honestly I don't find Pally's good to go past the early levels. They can be nice for 2-3 levels to get some bonuses (2 for divine grace especially).

Clerics, especially Crusader clerics actually do....MORE damage then paladins in some cases as they can get weapon spec/greater weapon spec/improved crit etc for free. They can also get martial weapons for free (and in fact it's the bes tchoice for you rlevel 1 free feat), and heavy armor (though I wouldn't waste a spot on heavy armor as medium lets you move faster and all it takes is a cats grace to get the same AC as heavy).

Clerics get a domain (or if not crusader domains), which can be used to get an animal companion, or if you don't want to make the game too easy, go with healing domain for free empower healing (already heal way better then a paladin, but iwth empower healing you ALSO heal for 1.5x as much).

What does Cleric not get?

Well it doesn't get as good saves due to divine grace (2 paladin levels can fix this though, and give you martial weapons for free. If you go with the ranged subclass of paladin and plan on being a ranged combat cleric, you also get precise shot for free as well). It gets less hp, and um.........yeah that is it.

Pretty much in every way a 2 pally/18 cleric is better then a pure pally I would say. You get almost all the advantages of the pally, but still get sick cleric abilities/spells etc. If you go with animal domain, you still end up with a 19th level animal companion (it's not 19th level, but it's based on YOU being 19th level) with 1 boon companion skill.

So yeah, go cleric....pally is good to multi-class but that is really it. Same with Barbarian (and much less levels, in fact i don't see many reasons to EVER get more then 1 barbarian level), and I rarely see any reason to even multi-class with ranger (honestly ranged fighters are just plain better, and there are other combo's that give you an animal companion right away).

[climbingeastofwinter]

Originally posted by TEMPIEST:

Hospitaler is a Paladine who wanted to be crusader and Fail, cant recomend.

The Paladin Hospitaler gains immunity to death-effects at level 11, I believe. Crusaders aren't bad, but they can't match the Hospitaler for immunities, saving throws, and access to Smite Evil which is pretty awesome for boss fights - granting everyone in your party +5 to hit, full DR bypass, and +20 damage per attack at level 20 is pretty awesome. It isn't 115d6 ray splitting sneak attack awesome, like that crazy build someone was pushing a few days/weeks ago, but it's still good.

[Rattenstein]

Originally posted by wulfster42:

Honestly I don't find Pally's good to go past the early levels. They can be nice for 2-3 levels to get some bonuses (2 for divine grace especially).

Clerics, especially Crusader clerics actually do....MORE damage then paladins in some cases as they can get weapon spec/greater weapon spec/improved crit etc for free. They can also get martial weapons for free (and in fact it's the bes tchoice for you rlevel 1 free feat), and heavy armor (though I wouldn't waste a spot on heavy armor as medium lets you move faster and all it takes is a cats grace to get the same AC as heavy).

Clerics get a domain (or if not crusader domains), which can be used to get an animal companion, or if you don't want to make the game too easy, go with healing domain for free empower healing (already heal way better then a paladin, but iwth empower healing you ALSO heal for 1.5x as much).

What does Cleric not get?

Well it doesn't get as good saves due to divine grace (2 paladin levels can fix this though, and give you martial weapons for free. If you go with the ranged subclass of paladin and plan on being a ranged combat cleric, you also get precise shot for free as well). It gets less hp, and um.........yeah that is it.

Pretty much in every way a 2 pally/18 cleric is better then a pure pally I would say. You get almost all the advantages of the pally, but still get sick cleric abilities/spells etc. If you go with animal domain, you still end up with a 19th level animal companion (it's not 19th level, but it's based on YOU being 19th level) with 1 boon companion skill.

So yeah, go cleric....pally is good to multi-class but that is really it. Same with Barbarian (and much less levels, in fact i don't see many reasons to EVER get more then 1 barbarian level), and I rarely see any reason to even multi-class with ranger (honestly ranged fighters are just plain better, and there are other combo's that give you an animal companion right away).

Paladins have smite though, and can give this to ALL party members (including pets). So on hard boss fights (where it actually matters) they are a lot better. These extra feats the crusader has don't really amount to much when the paladin not only has two of them, but has Divine Weapon Bond that gives just as much hit. The only difference is the improved crit. Then you have the Paladin auras and mercies.

The standard cleric is better anyway, because you're going to miss out on an extra domain for a sub-par fighter. I'd rather have a paladin and a cleric in the team, so that's one full time healer and one part-time healer who can tank and do damage as well. Have them buff/protect a 2H fighter and you're all set. Though mainly the Paladin is there for smite, which is IMO the best attack skill in the game.

[Rattenstein]

Originally posted by climbingeastofwinter:

Originally posted by TEMPIEST:

Hospitaler is a Paladine who wanted to be crusader and Fail, cant recomend.

The Paladin Hospitaler gains immunity to death-effects at level 11, I believe. Crusaders aren't bad, but they can't match the Hospitaler for immunities, saving throws, and access to Smite Evil which is pretty awesome for boss fights - granting everyone in your party +5 to hit, full DR bypass, and +20 damage per attack at level 20 is pretty awesome. It isn't 115d6 ray splitting sneak attack awesome, like that crazy build someone was pushing a few days/weeks ago, but it's still good.

One problem people were pointing out with the Hospitalier is that they can't pick selective channelling (meaning that enemies are also healed by the channel). Was this a problem for you?

Also, another problem is that they get less charges to their smite.

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

Probably a cleric, do to getting level 9 spells divine power, and the like really a huge boost to their over all power. That said, paladin has alot of useful abilities and huge saving throws so they generally won't fail saving throws ever, and are immune to alot of things. While they DO get more hp... a cleric who focuses himself on becoming a bastion of defense ... well just to compare i built harim as a cleric tank and he's about as tanky as valarie unbuffed (slightly less AC) but if i fully buff him with every spell in the book he'd quickly out pace her, on top of this i focused him on high wisdom so while tanking those hits he can also throw out hold person, flame strike and acid spray...

Basically a cleric can just do more then a paladin and will tank better via CC as aggro isn't a thing, the paladin is likely to have more hp howevet, higher saves but a cleric will just make himself immune to most stuff.

So i'd say a cleric... or even inquistor over a paladin honestly.

[Naked Granny]

Originally posted by wulfster42:

Honestly I don't find Pally's good to go past the early levels. They can be nice for 2-3 levels to get some bonuses (2 for divine grace especially).

Paladin as a class is absolutely beyond overpowered for the first half of the game, and they cannot be matched in tanking late game due to Divine Grace. Saves are what matters. Saves and being able to Smite your target to bypass all DR and gain a (massive!) bonus to-hit and damage.

Divine Grace and Smite are all that matters.

[=[NK]= Col. Jack O'Neil]

What am I missing with the hospitaler vs normal paladin??

When clicking between that and normal cleric on the progression chart it doesn't show much different, a few less smite evils and change of mark of justice, but other than that it's the same? And the descriptions of the archtype is so uninformative to me that I'm stumped!

[Morgian]

The best healer/tank is a (martial class) 1/cleric (all the rest). The martial class should take care of armor and weapon proficiency in one go, and when picking fighter, you also get a bonus feat. Only clerics are main healers, since no semi-caster gets the important spells restoration, heal and mass heal.
My own cleric is a fighter 1/cleric X mercenary and works for me. When I feel like it I can use divine power and righteous might to do some damage. The important thing is to use a twohanded weapon to make best use of the size effect, even if you lose on AC. By going in a round after the tanks that is safe enough. It is probably worth it to give all your melees the same teamwork feat, including the cleric, as they can be very useful. Sadly I neglected that :(

Paladins are main tanks, probably the best ones. Their +CHA to saves and quick action lay-on-hands (on self) are much better than what a fighter can offer. Smite evil is also a big bonus (+CHA to hit and paladin level to damage), and you notice the +4/+12 in difficult fights, since many foes are evil. They have few spells, but they get highly useful ones like lesser restoration, delay poison or resist energy, communal, which is a big plus for the group.
But they are no main healers, no matter how you look at it. The famous oradin build is not possible, since the oracle class is not in game, so look at them as tanks with benefits, but not as real healers.

[=[NK]= Col. Jack O'Neil]

And how do you guys handle clerics being able to cast cure spells in the front line? Don't you just provoke and lose the spell? :/