No flanking bonus even though flanking

[DM Dan]

Hey guys, any idea why sometimes I am not getting sneak attacks even though I am flanking?
It only occurs on certain enemies and I am not sure what is causing it. In one fight for example I have my PC and Valerie both attack enemy 1 and I get the flanking bonus and do sneak attacks on every hit. Then after killing it we move onto the next target and suddenly every single hit does not have flanking. Noticing this, after 4-5 rounds of nothing but non-sneak attacks I decide to attack enemy 3 and suddenly all attacks are sneak attacks now.

This happens often, with random creatures like a random Warg, a random hydra etc. Not every single one of these creatures, just certain instances of them. I took some screenshots this time of it happening with a Quickboar.

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Any way, thanks in advance for anyone who can help me figure this out.

[CHAO$$$]

If i remember correctly a creature is only flanked if youre actually attacking it with melee. So lets say you go into melee slap it one time and then start casting a spell in the following round. Some abilities have similar effect - basically everything that isnt considered equal to a melee attack. (might be confusing this with the flank rules in some other game not sure rn)

The flanking attribute would fall off when youre casting and after that it takes a moment to activate again.

There are some enemies that are immune to flanking as well, off the top of my head barbarians and ghosts. Maybe worgs? That boar certainly shouldnt be though.

[haplok]

Some enemies, like Barbarians and Rogues have Improved Uncanny Dodge feat, which prevents flanking. Such creatures generally shouldn't have it though. What was Val doing before?

[Eonwe]

Yeah some of those wolves have improved uncanny dodge, because they're like barbarian 4 / magical beast x.
Hydras don't have it tho afaik.

[Grifta]

Also, if this is the first round of combat, it's entirely possible that Valerie was flatfooted until after Angel's attack.

What do you have a combat log that shows multiple hits on that creature?

[Autocthon]

Could be that Val hadn't begun attacking. Could be that the boar has concealment. Could be that Val was prone the previous round (and consequently broken flanking).

[DM Dan]

Heyo friends. Good to know about the uncanny dodge!
In the case of this boar, Valerie was not knocked prone at any point. This screenshot was taken after the first round of combat, both Valerie and PC had been attacking it for a few rounds already. I am familiar with the slight delay before flanking takes effect at the start of combat, though!

As for concealment I am not sure if the boar was concealed somehow. I don't see how. No spells were cast on it that would provide concealment and it was like this for all 5-6 rounds it took to kill it. If it were concealed somehow would I be able to see that on the stat sheet from the first screenshot?

[Autocthon]

Originally posted by Satan:

As for concealment I am not sure if the boar was concealed somehow. I don't see how. No spells were cast on it that would provide concealment and it was like this for all 5-6 rounds it took to kill it. If it were concealed somehow would I be able to see that on the stat sheet from the first screenshot?

Check the attack roll resolution. There are tecnically a few other ways to not be able to sneak attack too, but I've had very few issues with it myself.

[Shadenuat]

Can you even flank if you are yourself threatened by 2 enemies? So weird.

Rogue can't sneak enemies with total concealment (in PnP anyway), but I'm not sure First World enemies like boars have it, I think they have like 20%.

[Autocthon]

Any level of concealment is supposed to disable sneak attack. As will Blink effects. And of course there is always fortification, which the boar might have unlisted.

[DM Dan]

Originally posted by Autocthon:

Check the attack roll resolution. There are tecnically a few other ways to not be able to sneak attack too, but I've had very few issues with it myself.

Thank you for this advice! I found a save I had before the fight and went to redo it. I checked the attack rolls and it would seem the boar has concealment for some reason! Thanks for your help. Next time it happens I will be sure to check for concealment in this way! I also learned about Uncanny Dodge being a thing enemies could have too.

Thank you everyone for your help <3

[Autocthon]

All the first world enemies have permanent concealment. Makes rogues lives harder, but I think yo ucan strip it with Glitterdust.

[DM Dan]

Originally posted by Autocthon:

All the first world enemies have permanent concealment. Makes rogues lives harder, but I think yo ucan strip it with Glitterdust.

Oooh interesting! So far, the other things I know to look out for now are blindness, concealment, Uncanny Dodge. Is there any way around the Uncanny Dodge feat? I expect not, but worth asking! Thanks for the tip about Glitterdust.

[Shadenuat]

Concealment they have shouldn't affect Sneak. And Glitterdust doesn't help there. What it does is Blinds them, which means that way you can get Sneak and they lose their DEX bonus to AC.

The ways to negate natural Concealment are True Strike, Echolocation & Blind Fight feat (partially). Since Blind Fight also gives you immunity to Gaze attacks, it's a good pick for anyone in PK main campaign later anyway.

[Autocthon]

Originally posted by Shadenuat:

Concealment they have shouldn't affect Sneak..

Any concealment disables sneak. Any at all. So it should be doing what it's doing.

As far as glitterdust goes I was actually thinking of the effects of faerie fire. Glitterdust visibly outlines invisible creatures, faerie fire negates some kinds of concealment.

[Shadenuat]

You mean game or PnP? Because Unchained Rogue only loses Sneak on Total Concealment.

Faerie Fire doesn't do anything against natural Concealment, last time I tried it. There's difference in Concealment you gain through magic in this game, and what First World have. The latter doesn't seem to be affected by spells much. (This whole natural Concealment thing bothered me so much in game I tested things on it a lot and was disappointed at how useless many spells against Concealment are in the game because of this - which is why I prefered to just pick Blind Fight on most characters; things may changed since then though)