Story was good, storytelling was AMAZING [massive spoilers]

[burningmime]

Just finished this game and wanted to rant and rave a bit.

The overall plot was quite good, but more important than the plot was the way it was told. First, I really liked how it wasn't "go save the world from this evil", It was "go save your kingdom from this small problem, and we'll tie it into the main story later", You also had a real stake in adventuring, you were doing what you could for your own kingdom (OK, maybe it doesn't make total sense that a king/queen would just go out on their own with a few friends to do these things, but whatever).

No deus ex machina, no "chosen ones" or special powers, and no prophecies to drive characters. That's rare in a fantasy story! All the major players had very clear goals and things happened because those characters were trying to achieve those goals, not because things had to happen because of the story.

Also, it managed to take your user-generated character and put them at the forefront of many of these events -- that's easy with, say, Geralt in The Witcher or a JRPG hero because the character has a personality of their own, but comparatively hard with a user-created character.

Villians were great:

• the Lantern King was a force of evil just to do evil psychopath things, which is often needed in these stories, but the choice to make him a nonhuman blob of fire means that I viewed him more as a force of nature than as a character, which makes "evil for the sake of evil" easier to swallow
  
• Nyrissa was tragic, but not entirely without guilt. She was evil, and repeatedly made evil choices, but they were understandable. I don't know if she could have escaped the curse by killing herself (can Fey even kill themselves?) but I like to think she could have, and chose to ruin kingdoms and kill millions of innocents instead.
  
  It's also not completely clear what emotions the Briar took away from her, since she seems capable of some level of logical thought and emotion without the Briar. If the only reason she's destroying kingdoms is because of the Briar thing, then she's just a non-character who's being driven by a plot device instead of personal will. So I hope that's not it. Anyone familiar with the original Pathfinder lore can clarify that?
  
• Iorvetti was a rival who wanted to ruin you politically, and felt very realisitic and believable (mostly... I don't think they needed to make Iorvetti a ♥♥♥♥♥♥; kings could tame a whole lot of strange without having to resort to violence, just like powerful dudes today do). Iorvetti wasn't completely bad; he was doing what he thought was good for his kingdom (and being played by Nyrissa), but you were completely justified in taking him down.

Only major complaint is companions. It's tricky because the game can't know which companions are alive at any given time. Jhod and the Storyteller were your foils in the endgame segment who guided you, while my fellows were mute. I think this is a limitation of the game design, but it's unfortunate that no true friend characters emerged (except kind of Linzi, maybe). So every companion was just isolated into their own side-story (which, IMO, ranged from great [DLC Tiefling with K names] to tropey [Amiri] to boring and goes nowhere [Octavia and Regonar])

Other minor complaints are that romancing Nyrissa means you need to be willing to doom your kingdom for her. I doubt the Apology would just accept abdicating the throne (that's not a kingdom "ruined"); you would need to let thousands of subjects suffer and die to find out if the forest floor matches the canopy. Also, at the very beginning it wasn't made clear why only you or Cartuccio are the only ones in the running for the stolen lands. But both those are very minor.

Anyways, though, just wanted to type out my thoughts cause I don't have many IRL friends who are into RPGs. This game told a hell of a story. Gameplay wasn't half-bad either, especially considering the sheer ammount of content they needed to design and balance.

[pie gie]

I dont understand how romancing Nyrissa means you are willing to condemn you kingdom.
As I recall, it's the peaceful solution until the Lantern king decides to take matters into his own hands.

[burningmime]

Originally posted by pie gie:

I dont understand how romancing Nyrissa means you are willing to condemn you kingdom.
As I recall, it's the peaceful solution until the Lantern king decides to take matters into his own hands.

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't there a conversation where Nyrissa visits you in your throne room, and the romance choice is to say "I'll give up my kingdom for you"? My ending was Nyrissa as ally but not lover.

[Queen Yuu The Reclusive]

<Doesn't list Vordecai as a villain

11/9 best Ally in the game.

On a real note, I felt the story was good. Irovetti was a rival you expected to have and how he was introduced and acted really sets his character as the 'I'll only dirty my hands when the bandits fail' type of guy.

Nyrissa was a villain I expected the Nymph to be, but also doubted. She was well done, but of all the villain I feel she has room for improvement.

The Big Glowy Boi is, by far, my favorite villain in any video game. He's kind of like the Joker in how he toys with you, but his reveal and fight are all well put together. Villains that hide in the shadow and watch their actions cause problems and other events before deciding to strike once they've had enough are always fun for me.

My only real complaint is Tristan. I mean, all companions were a bit meh, but Kanerah and Kai-Can't-Think-Of-The-Proper-Spelling, Octavia and Valeria were the best. I personally hated Tristan because his entire character was so bland and how he acted just annoyed me. I get the whole 'fallen from grace by deceit' shtick, but I just can't enjoy his character.

Octavia's Good and Evil companion quest ends were both good, her Evil one being my prefer. Valeria, while I hear her romance is dull, has a very nice and loyal character that won't waver easily and I enjoy that.

Finally, best Tiefling sisters. I. Must. SEX!

[Babbles]

I'd like to give a shout out to Kresten - without you, I could never do it on Unfair :)

I have only just (after ~900 hours) realised that companions chat differently during rest based on who is or isn't present - I don't mean Ocatvia talking to Regongar, I mean Ocatvia will chat *to other characters* differntley if Regongar is present.

Basically, she is more comfortable and outgoing if he is in the party.

[Queen Yuu The Reclusive]

Originally posted by Babbles:

I'd like to give a shout out to Kresten - without you, I could never do it on Unfair :)

Kresten is a soldier who needs no salute. He knows he is one of the most valued members of my kingdom.

Neigh. My world.

[Babbles]

Originally posted by Queen Yuu The Scarlet:

Originally posted by Babbles:

I'd like to give a shout out to Kresten - without you, I could never do it on Unfair :)

Kresten is a soldier who needs no salute. He knows he is one of the most valued members of my kingdom.

Neigh. My world.

Kresten being Svetlana'a sister - the girl who turncoats The Stag Lord :)

But yeah, the other guy - I usually sacrifice Johd in favour of him.

[pie gie]

Originally posted by burningmime:

Originally posted by pie gie:

I dont understand how romancing Nyrissa means you are willing to condemn you kingdom.
As I recall, it's the peaceful solution until the Lantern king decides to take matters into his own hands.

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't there a conversation where Nyrissa visits you in your throne room, and the romance choice is to say "I'll give up my kingdom for you"? My ending was Nyrissa as ally but not lover.

I never picked that option, and I got the romance just fine.
I even avoided her fight.
You should look up the secret ending guide.

[Babbles]

Originally posted by Babbles:

Originally posted by Queen Yuu The Scarlet:

Kresten is a soldier who needs no salute. He knows he is one of the most valued members of my kingdom.

Neigh. My world.

Kresten being Svetlana's sister - the girl who turncoats The Stag Lord :)

But yeah, the other guy - I usually sacrifice Johd in favour of him.

[Lane]

Originally posted by burningmime:

• Nyrissa was tragic, but not entirely without guilt. She was evil, and repeatedly made evil choices, but they were understandable. I don't know if she could have escaped the curse by killing herself (can Fey even kill themselves?) but I like to think she could have, and chose to ruin kingdoms and kill millions of innocents instead.
  
  It's also not completely clear what emotions the Briar took away from her, since she seems capable of some level of logical thought and emotion without the Briar. If the only reason she's destroying kingdoms is because of the Briar thing, then she's just a non-character who's being driven by a plot device instead of personal will. So I hope that's not it. Anyone familiar with the original Pathfinder lore can clarify that?

Man its been awhile since I played this, but if I remember correctly Briar was part of her that represented love, compassion, empathy, etc. She is in no way limited in logical thought, but since part of her that cares for others is taken away she is just willing to do anything and everything to achieve her goals, essentially turning her evil. Nymphs are normally Chaotic Good in lore.
Don't think this makes her a non-character, she still acts based on her reasoning and emotions even if part of her emotional spectrum has been chopped off by Lantern King.

[burningmime]

Originally posted by Lane:

Originally posted by burningmime:

• Nyrissa was tragic, but not entirely without guilt. She was evil, and repeatedly made evil choices, but they were understandable. I don't know if she could have escaped the curse by killing herself (can Fey even kill themselves?) but I like to think she could have, and chose to ruin kingdoms and kill millions of innocents instead.
  
  It's also not completely clear what emotions the Briar took away from her, since she seems capable of some level of logical thought and emotion without the Briar. If the only reason she's destroying kingdoms is because of the Briar thing, then she's just a non-character who's being driven by a plot device instead of personal will. So I hope that's not it. Anyone familiar with the original Pathfinder lore can clarify that?

Man its been awhile since I played this, but if I remember correctly Briar was part of her that represented love, compassion, empathy, etc. She is in no way limited in logical thought, but since part of her that cares for others is taken away she is just willing to do anything and everything to achieve her goals, essentially turning her evil. Nymphs are normally Chaotic Good in lore.
Don't think this makes her a non-character, she still acts based on her reasoning and emotions even if part of her emotional spectrum has been chopped off by Lantern King.

That seems a little too convienient. I take back my "no Deus Ex Machina"; that's clearly there to force a character to act differently than they normally would. She's not wholly incapable of love or compassion; she has these traits in some of the conversations you have with her before she gets the Briar back. So her capability for love/compassion is "whatever the writers need it to be for this scene" =(.

That makes me like her - and the whole story - a lot less. I still like the story presentation, pacing, and how the main character is weaved into it but that Briar thing seems like too convienent a plot device. Especially because it doesn't *need* to be that way -- TLK could just have taken away her capability to feel joy/happiness, then she's an interesting, conflicted character who's acting under her own will. Instead, she's reduced to a plot piece.

This also robs her of her character development. Instead of being slowly twisted over time by the evils she's forced to commit, she's just given a completely different personality instantly.

I wonder if the writers were hamstrung by the Pathfinder Adventures thing, or because they wanted to pin her into "chaotic good"/"chaotic evil" archetypes.

[Lane]

Originally posted by burningmime:

Originally posted by Lane:

Man its been awhile since I played this, but if I remember correctly Briar was part of her that represented love, compassion, empathy, etc. She is in no way limited in logical thought, but since part of her that cares for others is taken away she is just willing to do anything and everything to achieve her goals, essentially turning her evil. Nymphs are normally Chaotic Good in lore.
Don't think this makes her a non-character, she still acts based on her reasoning and emotions even if part of her emotional spectrum has been chopped off by Lantern King.

That seems a little too convienient. I take back my "no Deus Ex Machina"; that's clearly there to force a character to act differently than they normally would. She's not wholly incapable of love or compassion; she has these traits in some of the conversations you have with her before she gets the Briar back. So her capability for love/compassion is "whatever the writers need it to be for this scene" =(.

That makes me like her - and the whole story - a lot less. I still like the story presentation, pacing, and how the main character is weaved into it but that Briar thing seems like too convienent a plot device. Especially because it doesn't *need* to be that way -- TLK could just have taken away her capability to feel joy/happiness, then she's an interesting, conflicted character who's acting under her own will. Instead, she's reduced to a plot piece.

This also robs her of her character development. Instead of being slowly twisted over time by the evils she's forced to commit, she's just given a completely different personality instantly.

I wonder if the writers were hamstrung by the Pathfinder Adventures thing, or because they wanted to pin her into "chaotic good"/"chaotic evil" archetypes.

Where does she show love or compassion before getting briar back? Don't think thats the case. If you mean at the start when she is pretending to be damsel in distress, that's just fake facade shown to manipulate you. She was pretty consistent in my memory.

Don't really share any of the rest of the sentiment either. She is acting on her own will, even if she is led on by a master manipulator. Personality was magically changed before you even meet her... So what? Don't really see anything bad in such storyline. To each their own I guess.

[Jeysie]

Originally posted by burningmime:

Also, at the very beginning it wasn't made clear why only you or Cartuccio are the only ones in the running for the stolen lands.

Everyone else was either dead as a doornail or was in it mostly for a chance to be the man behind the man rather than being the man themselves.

Originally posted by burningmime:

I wonder if the writers were hamstrung by the Pathfinder Adventures thing, or because they wanted to pin her into "chaotic good"/"chaotic evil" archetypes.

It's taken from the Adventure Path. If anything she's almost kinda more of a cartoon villain there.

Originally posted by burningmime:

So every companion was just isolated into their own side-story (which, IMO, ranged from great [DLC Tiefling with K names] to tropey [Amiri] to boring and goes nowhere [Octavia and Regonar])

I don't know, the companions seem on par with every other RPG I've played: they offer up random commentary on all the dialogues you have and most of the in-depth storytelling is in their companion stories.

What I liked is that basically every companion in the game had some kind of hidden depth that makes you re-evaluate your first impression of them. In some folks like Linzi it's a minor evaluation, but with some like Jubilost it's almost a 180.

And yes, even Tristian. If you let him stay, once he's finally fully his own person able to be how he wants to be, it becomes clear the flatness was a front he had to put on and he's actually got a fair bit of spark under there. (Granted, if you listen to some of his party banters with Regongar and Jaethal in particular, you get a sense of this beforehand.)

[burningmime]

Originally posted by Lane:

Where does she show love or compassion before getting briar back?

Throne room conversation.

Originally posted by Jeysie:

Originally posted by burningmime:

Also, at the very beginning it wasn't made clear why only you or Cartuccio are the only ones in the running for the stolen lands.

Everyone else was either dead as a doornail or was in it mostly for a chance to be the man behind the man rather than being the man themselves.

I'd say at least Jaethal would want a shot at the barony. Although I guess technically she's dead as a doornail ;-P

[Jeysie]

Originally posted by burningmime:

I'd say at least Jaethal would want a shot at the barony. Although I guess technically she's dead as a doornail ;-P

It comes up in one of her personal dialogues that she was mostly looking for the protection of a powerful patron which would let her thus get to continue her own hedonistic pursuits in more relative safety from the people pursuing her.