Dex based shield bash build ideas

[Kehldael]

Hello people !

I wanted to discuss with you about the possibility of a dex based shield bash build.
I'm all for trying oddball builds. This one came to mind as I like the idea of a medium armored agile guy, able to fight and jump rapidely with both a longsword and a shield, with a bow on the side, and a hooded cloak... hooded cloak is a must have for style points.
Also, bludgeoning and slashing damage build.

I also like the idea of him using some magic sometimes, so I narrowed it down to 2 classes that could pull off the feat intensivity of this kind of builds: Ranger and Paladin.
Also I'm not really fond of multiclassing, so I didn't try it, but feel free to improve on it with those if you feel like it !

A paladin in medium armor ? 'wtf ?' you'd say. Well actually it can work, and it's pretty not bad either ! It's purely based on numbers and theory, I haven't actually tested them in combat yet and only to level 9 where they start to shine.
I also want to state that I used only basic weaponry, no enchanted (+1 and whatnot) stuff ! So expect bigger number on actual playthrough.

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Paladin
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Stats:
STR 13
DEX 16 (+2 from human = 18)
CON 14
INT 12 (we need moar skills)
WIS: 10 (I hate stat dump)
CHA 14

Feats:
1st lvl: Weapon focus (longsword) and weapon finesse (weapon finesse isn't really useful now, I know, but it will be later on)

3rd lvl: Slashing Grace (Longsword) Ok now we can hit and damage ennemies with our DEX.

5th lvl: Piranha Strike because we want to pump our numbers a bit

7th lvl: Two weapon fighting so now we can use our second hand too ! With a dagger or an hatchet

9th lvl: Shield Bash so we can now use a light shield in the off-hand !

Skills: I focused mainly on Mobility to be able to move freely in battle, Knowledge of the world, and Persuasion because... well you're a Paladin, what did you expect ? I also added a side of stealth every 2 levels with that bonus point from INT for the fluff and because stealth is always useful.

Put your stats points into DEX to get up to 20DEX at lvl 9.

Here we have a decent fighting character also useful for other stuff. attacks are +10/+5 with 10-17 dmg for the sword, and +9 with 7-10dmg for the light shield without enchants (I expect more with enchanted weaponry)
We also got a nice little +14/+9 with the bow, with only 2-9 dmg, but hey, it's only our side weapon.
For tougher baddies, we can toss the shield aside, and go two handed with our longsword, upgrading our attacks rolls to +14/+9 with the sword, and dmg to 14-21.
Weapon bond allows us to pump all that by a nice little +2 atk roll.

Armor-wise, there is choice to be made... A breastplate is the best AC you'll get out of this build, but it has a -4AC checks, which sucks if you want to move around in battle or be stealthy.
You could trade that for a studed leather armor, you'll have only 1 AC less, but with only -1AC checks. It's really up to you. The more you'll level, the more DEX you'll have, and more DEX means lighter armor are an options for no penalty in AC checks

Other than slashing and bashing, we still have abilities like channel positive energy, lay on hands, divine weapon bonds and of course... SMITE EVIL.
We also got some nice auras for our friendlies in melee, and very good saves for ourselves with some immunities.
The spellbook allows for some communal shields, heals, bless, etc... all good options
This character makes for a nice evil boss killer, who can also support his allies. He won't be the sturdier, nor the deadlier, but he's still one of the most useful dudes in your party.
Now go fight evil with style.


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Ranger
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Stats:
STR: 13
DEX: 16 (+2 from human = 18)
CON: 14
INT: 10 (we already have lots of skills, but I hate playing dumb characters)
WIS: 14 for spellcasting
CHA: 12 because we're the leader and stuff

Feats:
1st lvl: Weapon focus (longsword) and Two weapon fighting

2nd lvl: Sword and shield fighting style - Shield Bash (so by lvl 2 we can already TWF with our light shield)

3rd lvl: Weapon finesse

5th lvl: Slashing Grace (Longsword)

6th lvl: Shield Master

7th lvl: Piranha Strike

9th lvl: Boon companion

Skills: We've got choice here ! I went with Athletic, Mobility, Perception Persuasion
And every 2 levels I alternated between Stealth and Lore (Nature)

Favorite ennemies are Humans and Fey, and I only take those 2. Favored Terrain is Underground and Forest.

Put your stats points into DEX to get up to 20DEX at lvl 9.

Here we have a decent fighter, which becomes really good against his favored ennemies. The plus part ? He has a freaking giant wolf that helps him deal damage and flank baddies, which pumps the character's theoretical damage by a lot. I used wolf for the trip attack on bite.

Attack wise, we've got +10/+5 with sword with 8-15 dmg, and +11 with light shield, with 7-10 dmg.. But we also have +14/+9 for the wolf, with 19-26 damage, which is part of the ranger's damage, we shall never forget that.
Also bow-wise, we have +14/+9 with 2-9dmg but it's still only a side weapon.

When two handing the sword, we go +12/+7 with 12-19 dmg

Armor wise: same as the paladin.

Here we have a character that is a pretty solid pillar of the party too. He may not synergise as well with his mates, but he's an autonomous damage dealer. You can dispatch him and his wolf around the group and go hunt the backline with him, with an easy flankiong mechanic. He can sustain some punishment while his wolf dish out the rest. He won't have the saves or the party support of the paladin, but he makes up for it in pure raw damage and presure on ennemies.
Ranger spellbook also allows for Lead Blades and Sense Vitals to improve his own damages even further.

Also, a ranger has more skills to use outside of battle.


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All in all, I believe those two builds are really feat intensive, and may be more fluff than min-max, but I don't find min-max that fun in a role playing game, and after all, they work number-wise.

Which one seems the most fun to you guys ? And how would you improve on those builds keeping the flavor in mind ?

Do you think they would be still viable at high level compared to other builds ?

[Mork]

The ranger as more potential for the idea over the paladin. The pal just don't have enough feat to make it work :(

Piranha strike is a odd choice at that level, i will take Outflank instead for sure and Piranha strike later if you really want it.

Overall, a 'ok' offtank for normal/challenging that gonna have a very hard time for harder difficulty. Don't expect too much ....

..............................

As for shield brasher, rogue are very good at it with a light shield. Eldritch scoundrel might be a option if you also want spells.

[Kehldael]

Outflank on the ranger ? Does that extends it to the pet ? Or do I have to take it on another companion ?

Why is Piranha strike an odd choice ? It increase the damage by quite a lot :o

[Mork]

Originally posted by Kehldan:

Outflank on the ranger ? Does that extends it to the pet ? Or do I have to take it on another companion ?

Why is Piranha strike an odd choice ? It increase the damage by quite a lot :o

For outflank, yes you do have to take it with other melee companion(s). Its a very powerful feat. Only sacred huntmaster level 3 can share his teamfeat with his pet.

In my opinion, hitting target more often at that level is more important then a small damage boost from piranha strike and a - to hit. You normally want outflank around level 5 if possible.

[Kehldael]

Oh I see, thanks a lot !

Then I'd do that for the pali too. Thanks for the input :)

Also, what do you think about going Flame Warden instead of base ranger ?
Are the benefits of flaming weapon and fire immunity / resurection worth the loss of the pet ?

[Kehldael]

Hmmm according to further tests, slashing grace doesn't allow me to use DEX instead of STR to my damage rolls on the longsword, but it still is required to allow me to use it with weapon finesse :/ That's too bad

[joniren]

You want to go for a heavy RP build. It's not going to work for hard or unfair, so considering that anything goes on lower difficulties both builds you mentioned will be viable and are cool in their own ways.

I will add to that list a multiclass slayer/bard. It might work out for you and achieve what you want - a bit of spellcasting, a bit of fighting. You will get some arcane casting failure in medium armor though, but with arcane armor training you can get it almost to 0. Other option is to stick to light armor.

Another one you might enjoy is eldritch scoundrel with levels in eldritch knight later on. Again only light armor, but is also an option.

Each of them will fulfill your wish of fighting with a shield and casting.

That's all from me, unless you want to talk what will be optimal for that kind of an idea.

[Mork]

I just found a important line missing from my 'regular' not always good source of info.

'You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/slashing-grace-combat/

[Kehldael]

Originally posted by joniren:

You want to go for a heavy RP build. It's not going to work for hard or unfair, so considering that anything goes on lower difficulties both builds you mentioned will be viable and are cool in their own ways.

I will add to that list a multiclass slayer/bard. It might work out for you and achieve what you want - a bit of spellcasting, a bit of fighting. You will get some arcane casting failure in medium armor though, but with arcane armor training you can get it almost to 0. Other option is to stick to light armor.

Another one you might enjoy is eldritch scoundrel with levels in eldritch knight later on. Again only light armor, but is also an option.

Each of them will fulfill your wish of fighting with a shield and casting.

That's all from me, unless you want to talk what will be optimal for that kind of an idea.

Thanks for the inputs mate !

Ofc I'd like to read about optimal stuff, you can even throw some multiclass in there :)

Originally posted by Mork:

I just found a important line missing from my 'regular' not always good source of info.

'You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/slashing-grace-combat/

Dammit >.< I'll have to find another solution for that

EDIT: https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderkingmaker/mods/129 This mods adds dervish dance to the feat pool, it might be nice to switch from longsword to scimitar, then. But that doesn't fix the issue concerning the light shield :/

[superlovi]

For slashing grace you need an empty hand. So if you want shield bash + agi build you have 2 options:
A) at leat 3 rogue level for finesse training
B) use an agile weapon ( there are a good bunch)

[Orange]

I see 2 errors right at the start of the Paladin build...

1st- finesse does not apply to longswords, slashing grace allows you to add dex to damage but the to-hit is still ruled by STR + BAB

2nd- Slashing Grace requires an empty hand to work, it wasnt designed to be used in dual wielding, the momment you equip a shield or another weapon you lose the effects of the feat.


My advice is, go for a 14, 16, 12, 10, 10, 14 if you want TWF or go agile weapons if you want a finesse paladin (though you will get the short end of it due to being rare and not many go above +3) or multiclasse with 3 levels of rogue.

Otherwise go back to the drawing board


As for the ranger... just go full STR, seriously, the combat styles ignore requirements so you can still TWF even with 8 DEX, so a 10-14 dex is more than enough. Also fyi shield feats dont have dex requirements, so you might wish to go two-weapon style instead and grab the shield feats with your regular feats.
The only time a ranger should heavily invest in dex is when he intends to be a ranged character

[Kehldael]

Originally posted by Orange:

I see 2 errors right at the start of the Paladin build...

1st- finesse does not apply to longswords, slashing grace allows you to add dex to damage but the to-hit is still ruled by STR + BAB

2nd- Slashing Grace requires an empty hand to work, it wasnt designed to be used in dual wielding, the momment you equip a shield or another weapon you lose the effects of the feat.


My advice is, go for a 14, 16, 12, 10, 10, 14 if you want TWF or go agile weapons if you want a finesse paladin (though you will get the short end of it due to being rare and not many go above +3) or multiclasse with 3 levels of rogue.

Otherwise go back to the drawing board


As for the ranger... just go full STR, seriously, the combat styles ignore requirements so you can still TWF even with 8 DEX, so a 10-14 dex is more than enough. Also fyi shield feats dont have dex requirements, so you might wish to go two-weapon style instead and grab the shield feats with your regular feats.
The only time a ranger should heavily invest in dex is when he intends to be a ranged character

Finesse DOES apply to longsword with Slashing Grace, that allow to treat the longsword as a piercing/small weapon for the feats purpose, thus finesse works.

But you are right, it's 2 feats and the damage part of slashing grace does not work anyways, it's a waste.
3 dip into rogue isn't a bad idea, I guess :)



About the ranger, going dex allows for the use of lighter armor, which means higher mobility. Also helps when the character has to use a bow for whatever reason.
But you're right, that's the only reasons and they are arguably not the best (even though I'm heavily leaning toward the "you have to be versatile" reasoning).


I'll try to improve on those builds, thanks for the input guys, I'll come back with something better !