Kineticist questions

[Climhazzard]

So I've been trying to understand Kineticist so I can make them for my parties, or use the Kineticist companion.

Mostly studying this wiki page, https://pathfinderkingmaker.gamepedia.com/Kineticist#Archetypes

I'd like the kineticist to be able to melee, blast, and cc effectively. Ideally I'd have everything important function off the same stat.

Kinetic blade attack is strength based, but can use weapon finesse to work off dex.

Blasts attack is dex based.

Most or all form infusions that require a DC are dex based.

The combat maneuver checks from your substance infusions are constitution based. I'm wondering if your combat maneuver checks switch to intelligence or wisdom if you go dark elementalist or psychokineticist? I'm also wondering if agile maneuvers works so that I could make everything except for the durations of my form infusions dex based?

Is the DC of slick also dex based? It doesn't say in the description. I'm most likely looking at starting with the water element, and would probably take slick at level 2 because there's almost nothing else to use besides blast or blade at low levels. In fact as far as I can tell, the description of all the wild talents that might have a DC don't list what it actually is.

I'm probably looking at going psychokineticist with one level in traditional monk, I know wisdom would still be very important even if agile maneuvers makes my combat maneuvers dex based, but after character creation I'd honestly like to focus on one stat, and accurate abilities has always been my preference.

Input would be appreciated, unless it's just to tell me which classes are better than kineticist, even if the answer is all of them.

[InEffect]

If the DC is not specified it goes off your casting stat.
Dex based kinteticists are better.
Base class is mathematically superior to psyco in every way possible, uneless you have trouble controlling your burn for some reason.
Not sure how much meta knowledge you are willing to be exposed to, so I'll stop at that.

[Climhazzard]

A bit interested in why the base class is superior to psycho in every way? Is it just because of elemental overflow? You need 24 wisdom before pschyo can have 7 burn?

[InEffect]

1. Burn. Psycho negates 1/2 burn per 2 Wis. Regular kineticist negates 1 burn per 2 stats. And you get most of those stats back through overflow.
2. Double-dipping. You go dex/con and get almost double the benefits. Especially for bowling infusion(that any self-respecting kineticist gets).
3. No need for wis item, so even for a tanky kineticist you can dip for a scaled fist and not use the +stat hat. Gloves of valor would fill that niche, if you can get those(or a spell if not). That allows you to be tanky and still use kineticist circlets.
If I'd think harder I would come up with more reasons, but those should suffice.

[Climhazzard]

Originally posted by InEffect:

2. Double-dipping. You go dex/con and get almost double the benefits. Especially for bowling infusion(that any self-respecting kineticist gets).

I know that you're getting HP, damage, form infusion duration, and maneuver checks from con. Ofc psycho dipping into monk would get AC from wis so is still double dipping. But this was why I asked about combat maneuver checks in particular, do they switch to wisdom if you go psycho or do they stay con? And can you change them to dex with agile maneuvers?

[InEffect]

you get both dex and con. meaning you get con mod to trips and then dex mod with fury's fall. You get just as much AC, just from dex and not wis, so that point is moot. Agile maneuvers are about 3-4 CMB for your standard spread of 24dex/16con+items by 20. Generally not worth it as you will have enough.
You will also have better AB as a bonus.

[Climhazzard]

I take that reply to mean a psycho's wis doesn't effect their CMB? it's still con? If fury's fall works then tripping is the clear winner for CC infusions?

[InEffect]

Wis does affect one part of Trip, but you don't get extra dex from your overflow, so you will be missing out on otherwise free CMB. All other infusions can't really compete, I guess you could go synapric infusion and grapple on a psycho and pump wis, but you will have miserably low CMB/DC and it just doesn't work well enough.
Bowling infusion/deadly earth is the only way for a proper kineticist. And regular kineticist does it better along with other benefits mentioned above.

[Climhazzard]

I didn't see that mental overflow basically replaces elemental overflow for psychokineticists, especially since psychokineticists get the same elemental overflow with the same description as other kineticists get. Guess I'll give up on my psychokineticist monk.

Thanks for your patience.

[haplok]

Please note Dex is NOT the DC casting stat for regular Kineticists. Con is.
Of course it does factor into CMB calculations. But if you want to use more Substance Infusions other then Bowling/Grappling/Magnetic (no save on the last one, but it's more for a party-friendly KK), you should focus on Con (Wis/Int).
Of course, like InEffect wrote, going for Deadly Earth Bowling is generally optimal.

But you could also go for like a Dreadful Carnage demoralizing Fire Blue Flame build that uses Blinding Infusion - and that would go off Con (Wis/Int). Then again, it's even better to go Magma Fire/Earth and still pick Deadly Earth and Bowling...

Hmm... Water with Kinetic Blade? Okay, that allows for good AC with a monk. But accuracy will be poor early on. If you're really keen on the blade, the best picks for the blade are IMO Electric and Fire elements. Electric is even better as the singular blade element (Magnetic & Synaptic Infusions), but combines very poorly with other elements and offers no noteworthy form Infusions (prior to end game Cloud). Fire on the other hand offers a little more damage, combines great with Earth and works with Water also. But if you pick Water & Fire, you delay Deadly Earth into end game territory and that's bad. A tough choice, for sure.

Kinetic Knights are easier, as you just skip the Form Infusions and Composite Blast and can simply pick a single preferred element easily. But also much weaker, of course.

[InEffect]

Starting with water is generally a waste. Water shield only becomes better than shield spell with levels. I'd say Earth>Fire>Water(to save 1 wild talent) or Fire>Earth>Water is a better way for a monk kineticist. It's also better in a sense that you can grab phys water blast and get a cloud to stack on top of deadly earth for ♥♥♥♥♥ and giggles.
Starting with electricity is ok-ish, but has problems. Not the least of which is there is no Electricity+Earth combo. And you will miss on fire, because you want water shield.
Electric>Earth>Fire is decent for a glass cannon, but you will face the problem of late dazzle/dreadful carnage that way, so it's another no-no.
There is an elephant in the room with fire start in the form of branded trolls, but there is not much you can do apart from just suffering through them with an earth blast. Better than suffering most of the game in my book.

[Climhazzard]

The problem with starting with earth imo is there's literally nothing to do besides use blast or blade until level 11. At least fire can burn things with fan of flames + fire infusion, or water can use slick, such that it is.

Fire looks the most fun, but if you take kinetic blade, fan of flames, and burning infusion as your first picks, then you don't have enough room for extended range, bowling infusion, wall, and deadly earth, by level 13.

I think I've probably learned enough to make a passable kineticist now at least. Seems like the easiest class by far to completely mess up your character to the point of uselessness.