Thoughts on Classes: Rogue Edition

[New Willinium]

Thoughts on Classes: Rogue Edition


So this has been something on my mind for a while now as something that might be fun for this forum and create some good discussion about a subject SO vital to the game itself. . .The classes. We have a LOOOOT of classes in this game, not including the Prestige Classes which will likely just get rolled into one thread, with four variations to each of these classes to build our characters in different ways.


So today's subject? Today's subject is the DnD classical of the Rogue class and it's varying archetypes . The Rogue has four basic archetypes: The Base Rogue, The Knife Master, the Thug, and the Eldritch Scoundrel.


Now let's start with the base Rogue shall we? The Rogue is the classical Adventurer class that has existed since day one of DnD and it is really no different here in Pathfinder. The Rogue's main draw is their ability to sneak attack enemies for massive damage, something that is dreafully easy in this game, and this sneak attack bonus increases every other level to the point by level 20 having it to be possible to instantly slay any enemy with a master strike. In addition to this Rogues are perhaps the most feat heavy class in the entire game due to how they gain Rogue Feats starting at level 2. Combined with a free Finesse Training feat at levels
3 and 11 and uncanny evasion. The Rogue is a VERY solidly built class to the point that they feel almost too well built if that makes any sense. With the Persuasion skill they can even function as a good face of the party.

Next up is the Knife Master, our little Goblin buddy has this class, and it is interesting in that their sneak attacks are increased to 1d8's rather then 1d6 when using small blades like knifes, starknifes, daggers, punching daggers, etcetera and they lose out on their Trap Sense and Danger sense skills in favor of this. . . honestly that seems like a fair trade in my opinion, with a good enough Perception you really don't need the Danger Sense feats.

Then we have the Thug. The Thug is a thug. They don't have the bonus sneak attacks of the Knife Master outside of the regular Rogue base, nor do they have the Danger Sense or Trap finding of the base Rogue, instead they trade out both in order to have the "Brutal Beating and Frightening" feats. Basically it allows for the Thus to sicken and later on frighten enemies via their Persuasion skill instead of dishing out the sneak attack damage. Though having never played them outside of a dip or two for Valerie's Kinetic Knight build I cannot say what this actually DOES in favor for the Thug to make it viable compared to the other archetypes.


Finally we have the Eldritch Scoundrel, the most interesting of the archetypes, who is rather interesting. Though they lose out on the vast majority of their Sneak Attack upgrades they get in exchange the ability to cast Wizard spells using the Magus progression. In exchange for losing out on so many Sneak Attack bonuses they also gain: Detect Magic, The base Trapfinding feat, Cantrips, and Danger Sense. They also get less Rogue Talent feats as they level up becoming every 4 levels rather then every other. I still need to dive into this class myself to see if they really are comparable to the rest but if there is a feat that let's them use Light armor and still use their magic spells without chance of Spell failure I can't help but feel like this could be an absolute favorite. The Rogue/Mage of the game.


Personally I think I would stick with the base Rogue or try out this Eldritch Scoundrel class one day. A reminder that Sneak attack damage is absolutely GROSS in this game due to how easy it is to get. Hm. . .I wonder what would have to be changed to make this a Magus Archetype?

So those were the Rogue classes and archetypes and I thought that they were all pretty damned awesome, what about the rest of y'all? What do you think of this class and it's archetypes? Are a fan of one over the other? Do you think this is a good class to multi-class into? What are the positives and downsides of the class, and archetypes, in your opinion?

[TaKo]

i've never tried an actual thug build, beyond single level dip for silly dazzling display set ups

but rogues are ridiculously strong damage dealers, the reason being how easy it is to sneak attack in this game

knife masters are disgusting at doing what rogues usually do since they use a better die for sneak attack dmg

overall, eldritch scoundrel is the only truly mediocre archtype i think? big loss in sneak attack die for a few spells? would rather just be a vivisectionist or arcane trickster, thanks

[InEffect]

Thug is 4dip.
Scoundrel is ok-ish 4level base for prestiges
the rest underperform and it's better to get 12vivisectionist and 2 archaeologist for opportunist. Or even vivisectionist+4rogue. either way rogue levels above 4 are not exactly worth it.
knife master would be interesting if it weasel kukris were real.

[Eonwe]

Full rogue is meh, even knife master.

They do make interesting multiclass options tho, for a lot of class.

[Mortis]

I am a big fan of the Eldritch Scoundrel. It is not easy to use but can be a real powerhouse. You can describe it as a 3/4 BAB mage with spells and sneak attacks. He can learn from scrolls and use full sneak attacks with sense vitals.

[InEffect]

I would describe scoundrel as a hobo vivisectionist.

[Mortis]

Vivisectionist has no mirror image, grease, pits, webs and summons. They can do a lot of damage but have few tricks and low survivability on hard/unfair. I love a rogue that can cast animate dead!

[InEffect]

Depends on vivisectionist. V12/M1/archaeologist2/DD4 with some variation on the last level does get mirror as well. And he gets opportunist without the need for rogue.
Earlygame is not about melee anyways. It's about abusing surprise round.

[Mortis]

And how long will those mirror images last? A few minutes? You also get more images with a higher caster level.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by Mortis:

And how long will those mirror images last? A few minutes?

Actually forever once you get yourself gyronna ammy. But I guess your were asking about before that. 10m with lesser extend. more than enough. Not that you really need mirror. With Vivisectionist's AC and displacement he'd be unkillable alright.

[Mortis]

Ok, maybe I will try this build to find out.

[TaKo]

Originally posted by InEffect:

I would describe scoundrel as a hobo vivisectionist.

pretty much

vivi getting full sneak attack die on top of mutagens and extracts while also getting dispelling and crippling strike just blows rogue out of the water(plus mummified body and permanent fast healing if u dont go for true mutagen)

[haplok]

What has already been said:

+ Neat ability package

- A Vivisectionist generally does everything better

[My Name is Mud]

Knife Master is dope as hell. Who cares about taking downgrades to sneak attack with weapon types you will never use anyway? When you also look at how many skill points rogues get, I think they are a super strong option for a main campaign character choice. Also a very easy class to roll in the Dazzling Display feat. And with points in Use Magic Item almost all scrolls and wands are options.

There's really not a lot to dislike there.

[Eonwe]

Originally posted by Death From Above:

Knife Master is dope as hell. Who cares about taking downgrades to sneak attack with weapon types you will never use anyway? When you also look at how many skill points rogues get, I think they are a super strong option for a main campaign character choice. Also a very easy class to roll in the Dazzling Display feat. And with points in Use Magic Item almost all scrolls and wands are options.

There's really not a lot to dislike there.

They're not bad but they're average.
As a single class they don't bring anything unique(well actually they do, but not much), even their dps isn't all that impressive.

But they're also good enough that you can play one and not feel gimped, even on harder difficulties.

The main issue is : vivisectionist does pretty much everything a rogue does, only better.

[New Willinium]

On the plus side Rogue DOES have one of the best looking outfits in the entire game, which is always nice in a 50+ hour game, they tie with the Magus in that.