Pathfinder: Kingmaker won GOTY awards in 2018

[Drivol]

Since 2018, Pathfinder: Kingmaker has won several awards and Owlcat has worked hard to continue and improve the quality of the product presented. Building and running a kingdom is never easy. The challenge is to meet the threats to the kingdom and continue to expand within a set time period -- https://owlcatgames.com/news/201.html

There are several modes of play including easy mode for those who like a more casual RPG experience -- https://kotaku.com/an-easy-mode-has-never-ruined-a-game-1833757865
Then again, for those who like the pain at which a Killer GM can bring, there are degrees of insanity to choose from. I have heard stories of those whose kingdom has fallen after 100+ hours of game play or cries of 'save scumming', but I am more inclined to think the difficulty setting was set way too high for the player. Blaming the game for inept gaming or tactical skills is somewhat tacky.

[InEffect]

Generally, kingdom management comes down to basic priority assessment. Those who fail elementary choice between exploration and dealing with existential threat to your kingdom are the ones who lose the campaign 100h in.
In reality timers are very lenient and are mostly there for the optics and to settle at least some sense of urgency into the player instead of the usual trope of the world waiting for you to find the time in your clearly busy schedule to deal with an invading army or whatever else is threatening to murder you next.
More or less the same goes for save-scumming. Sure, some of it is present, but if you listen to people, read your journal and make your party with the game realities in mind(like keeping several characters with high trickery/perception) you will do perfectly fine for the most part and will be ready for what is to come next.

[[404] d0hx.yves]

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[fourfourtwo79]

It won those awards on specialist sites, which is no surprise to me. Out of all the RtWP games, it's really the closest to the IE classics (whilst also doing stuff that wasn't in there) -- plus it doesn't hold much back any in terms of complexity. It can also be quite challenging. Except for the documentations that shipped with beefy good old games, this is an oldschool RPGers game through and through, finally, except running on modern technology. Hoping they'll carve a long-running series out of this, SSI style. Pathfinder seems to have diverse places a plenty to go to...

That said, I've still a good way to go. But I've seen players who are convinced that some of the quest description would be on occasion this misleading that they were "tricked" into dead ends. F'r instance, one guy claiming that the description of one of the urgent possibly kingdom threatening / events would literally read "let your advisors handle/think about this until you get some news". Which could also be a foreign translation issue. Then, also bugs. So far, nothing of the sort for me, though in the German translation it says half orcs would get a racial bonus on PERCEPTION as opposed to PERSUASION (when they attempt to intimate/demoralize someone). Which is naturally, wrong. Will be keeping an eye on this.

[dulany67]

So I think this is one of the 10 best games of all time. But...

I could never give it GotY based on the state it was released in. It was undoubtedly released 6 months early, trapping people into buying a full priced beta. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I bought it but I understand the frustration early adopters faced in many cases.

[Gvyomar]

Originally posted by dulany67:

I could never give it GotY based on the state it was released in.

I agree with you, @dulany67.

See you.

[Drivol]

I think the Beta condition was the result of the Kickstarter funding campaign and money restraints combined with Paizo's and the public's expectations of deadlines. However, overall Kingmaker was a success compared to the MMO Online World of Goblinworks. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-a-fantasy-sandbox-mmo/comments -- There are people who still embrace it, but the game has winded down the past six years, even when offering it for free in the Humble Bundle. I've played it and I prefer Kingsmaker by a large margin.

The difference is, that MMOs generate money with subscription. Kingsmaker basically gets money from volume of sales or expansion packs produced. When I upgraded from the base to the imperial version, I did so because I like the game and knew the developers needed the extra income boost. However, they are getting a small cut after Steam takes 33% and I am quite certain that Paizo will be at least 25% and Kickstarter takes around 10% including processing fees. Cost of living in Russia is 47.15% lower than in United States (aggregate data for all cities, rent is not taken into account). Rent in Russia is 70.09% lower than in United States (average data for all cities). https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Russia

So, they are making on average what a game developer might make in the United States after all the expenses are said and done. It's a comfortable living and do better than accountants in Russia. I can't really blame them for having the Kickstarter/Pathfinder/Gaming community do BETA testing for them. It's a cost effective measure to make sure they can continue to develop the game. A good impression will lead to further licensing agreements with Paizo.

Honestly, they fight hard to fix bugs to remain in good standing. The success of the game is based upon the reviews and volume of sales overall. Arguably, this game may largely determine whether or not we ever see a Pathfinder video game produced in the future. The more dog-like the game is, the less people are drawn to the business and the company may feel its a waste of time to have ANY video game produced with the Pathfinder license. If this engine is successful, then I could see Paizo kickstarting a Starfinder video game using the same engine, which is gaining ground rapidly in popularity.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by King Drivol:

Cost of living in Russia is 47.15% lower than in United States (aggregate data for all cities, rent is not taken into account). Rent in Russia is 70.09% lower than in United States (average data for all cities). https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Russia

Moscow is not exactly Russia. And Owlcat is located there. Decent place to live costs anywhere from 1k$ a month and up. Housing cost is about 250000$ for something half-decent. 500000$+ for an actually good one.
No competent specialist will work for less than 3k$ a month here and even that is lowballing it. Counting benefits and bonuses something around 5-6k is more like it. Still cheaper labor than in US, I guess, but not exactly that cheap.

[dulany67]

Originally posted by King Drivol:

Honestly, they fight hard to fix bugs to remain in good standing. The success of the game is based upon the reviews and volume of sales overall. Arguably, this game may largely determine whether or not we ever see a Pathfinder video game produced in the future. The more dog-like the game is, the less people are drawn to the business and the company may feel its a waste of time to have ANY video game produced with the Pathfinder license. If this engine is successful, then I could see Paizo kickstarting a Starfinder video game using the same engine, which is gaining ground rapidly in popularity.

They made the decision they had to. It was a business decision (as well as existential) and I may very well have made the same decision. That does not mean they should be rewarded for it. Also, while their consistent efforts and dedication to fixing the game is appreciated there are also implications for future games. How many were burned to the point where they swear off Owlcat? How many refuse to jump in early for the next game? Not to mention that initial user reviews hurt sales of this game.

[InEffect]

I preordered PK and I think I'll back their next game without hesitation. That's the opposite to being burned. I now know for a fact that even if the game will be a cluster*** they will see to it.

[Jeysie]

I applaud that Owlcat was willing to put in the effort to fix the bugs and I definitely will support them in further games.

But then, between the fact that I often don't get around to backlogged games until months later anyway and the fact that everyone and their brother seems to release games in Early Access nowadays... I dunno. I mean yeah it's a little annoying having to wait a few months to get to play a game until the bugs are ironed out but half the industry does the same thing nowadays so it feels weird to single Owlcat out for griping.

[Drivol]

Originally posted by dulany67:

Originally posted by King Drivol:

They made the decision they had to. It was a business decision (as well as existential) and I may very well have made the same decision. That does not mean they should be rewarded for it. Also, while their consistent efforts and dedication to fixing the game is appreciated there are also implications for future games. How many were burned to the point where they swear off Owlcat? How many refuse to jump in early for the next game? Not to mention that initial user reviews hurt sales of this game.

No win situation then for Owlcat. You want a completely polished game with limited budget in a short period of time. The project was started on Kickstarter in June 2017 and was promised in August 2018 (Released in September 2018), which gave 15 months of game development time. The pathfinder rule set is complicated by nature, aside from the graphics, music and overall process of having a game published as well as protecting intellectual property aspects of the game produced. Imagine having to regularly meet with Paizo representatives and make revisions to the game along the way, hiring voice actors, then having to work with Steam to create achievements, trading cards, etc. all while doing business overseas. They delivered on everything promised, save for the Pen and Paper Module which they are still waiting for Paizo to get back to them on.

The only way which they could have offered what you suggested is if they increased the price of the game to $60 for a base copy to hire an entire QA team to do what was asked. Releasing their program to the general public early for Beta testing could have resulted in countless knockoffs to be produced before they finished the product. As it stands, the Kickstarter offered the base game for a mere $20 and premium edition for $40. The closest you could have possibly gotten to that type of deal is the Humble Bundle 10th anniversary Pathfinder PDF books (valued at $505) in March 2019 for $18 -- with content already produced over 10 years old.

Of course, increasing the game price to $60 would have had the community draw out the pitchforks and torches, stating that the game is not a HALO or SKYRIM or FALLOUT. Give the little Russian indie developer a break already! I am impressed they managed to somehow pull it off.

[dulany67]

None of that changes what I said. For the record, I am an Owlcat fan, but I'm honest. And I would have happily paid $60.

[Samwise Gamgy]

Kickstarter backer here.
For the price, I paid, I was extremely happy with what I got. In fact, I didn't expect much as it was their first game, and a genre that is hard to get right.

Pillars of Eternity / Obsidian, Sieges of Dragonspear, Torment tides of numenera all dissapointed me at least a little but Owlcat hit the right spot for me: decent combat, great characters (IMO), great to good story, good music, nice additions to the genre with an adequate kingdom mini game...

Bugs and initial condition of the game sucks, but honestly I have played worst or equal messes: Skyrim, Fallout New Vegas, KOTOR 2, Arcanum, Temple of Elemental Evil, and Vampire Bloodlines just to name a few...

So yeah, I will jump in and buy / kickstart their next game without a shadow of a doubt.

PS: thousand times better than Fallout 4 imo and I spent $60 that I regret on that.

[Drivol]

Originally posted by dulany67:

None of that changes what I said. For the record, I am an Owlcat fan, but I'm honest. And I would have happily paid $60.

Didn't expect to change your mind, but moreso peaks my curiousity... in your opinion, what game and which software developer managed to achieve a polished product at the start that you enjoyed comparative to the relative budget allocated for Kingsmaker?

[dulany67]

The first game that springs to mind is DOS2. It was quite polished from release except for the last act- and really just the last half was muddled. So no, I really don't expect games to be perfect at release, but P:K was unplayable by the time you reach Pitax. And Pitax was still pretty messed up 3 months after launch. That's not really OK.

I would compare P:K to something like Arcanum or ToEE which were released in a state where you could not complete the game. Where as something like Skyrim was very buggy but could be finished without any problem.