I've just discovered damage reduction stacks... and it sucks...

[Manuelman]

So, more and more, I'm realizing the ruleset is not like the TT. Yes, I understand that there are limitations in a videogame. I actually like some of the changes I've incorporated in my tables (the fact that ranged attacks can flank), but others are a bit iffy for me (flanking, yes, I understand that having to be opposite your enemy is tedious and dangerous, and difficult to do in a game that doesn't track positions, but that's the whole point of flanking, it's a risk-reward thing).

But I have recently found 2 that are just, a huge wtf.

First is that, when flanking, in ray attacks, i.e. scorching ray or any spell that has more than 1 ray, sneak attack applies to all rays, instead of just one. This is in direct contradiction of the TT rules for the sake of... not sure what, because it basically allows me to have 3-4 sneak attacks in some cases with just one standard action.

Second, is the fact that damage reduction stacks... I sincerely don't understand this one, because other kinds of bonuses don't stack. Deflection bonuses to AC don't stack if you just put on two +2 rings of protection, or if you have natural armor and a necklace of natural armor, so why damage reduction from adamantine armor stacks with damage reduction of a barbarian is a bit beyond me.

I don't know, I want to like the game, but since I've played so much TT I feel like every time something like this happens it's a bit of a hurdle for me.

tl;dr: why did you have to change so much random ♥♥♥♥ from the TT, owlcat?

EDIT: oh, and paizo as well, since they were also involved (and probably are the ones deciding on the rules, anyway).

[Ichthyic]

dodge stacks (that's TT). luck stacks(?) morale stacks(?)

as for changing it from the TT... there has never been a CRPG ever, that did not do this, either because of gameplay issues, or by design.

[Mork]

1. I was pretty sure the multi sneak attack from ray spell was fixed a long time ago but no, just tested it and it still bug as you say.

2. For some reason adamantine armor give x/- dr and not x/adamantine. I don't know if its intended or not. Do /- dr stack in TT if they are from different source? Like stalwart and barbarian /- .

[Manuelman]

Originally posted by Mork:

1. I was pretty sure the multi sneak attack from ray spell was fixed a long time ago but no, just tested it and it still bug as you say.

2. For some reason adamantine armor give x/- dr and not x/adamantine. I don't know if its intended or not. Do /- dr stack in TT if they are from different source? Like stalwart and barbarian /- .

No, if you have two types of damage reduction (say, 5/- and 10/silver) and someone attacks you, you just get the highest DR, and if one is bypassed (in the example, 10 is bypassed) then you still get the one that isn't bypassed. Also, a 5/- and 2/- aren't supposed to become 7/-.

[bkgamingacc]

1. Scorching ray dealing multiple sneak attack dmg is against the 3.5 rules . Pathfinders doesn't have a very clear statement against it. Some argue that every ray has its own attack roll unlike manyshot feature that deals sneak attack only once, and should deal sneak dmg with each ray just like the rapidshot feature. Never seen an official pazio reply on topic.

2. Barb DR shouldnt stack but Stalward Defender DR should. Game treats them identical.

The ruling is very clear.

At 5th level, a stalwart defender gains DR 1/—. At 7th level, this DR increases to 3/—, and at 10th level it increases to 5/—. Damage reduction from different sources does not stack; however, a stalwart defender of 5th or higher level that gains DR from armor (but not from any other source) increases his class-based DR by the value of the armor’s DR. Thus a 7th-level stalwart defender wearing adamantine full plate (DR 3/—) has DR 6/—.

Edit 1 : https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qqm
I missed this one. Looks like they have replied in FAQ and ruled out multi sneak attacks with rays.

[Manuelman]

Originally posted by bkgamingacc:

1. Scorching ray dealing multiple sneak attack dmg is against the 3.5 rules . Pathfinders doesn't have a very clear statement against it. Some argue that every ray has its own attack roll unlike manyshot feature that deals sneak attack only once, and should deal sneak dmg with each ray just like the rapidshot feature. Never seen an official pazio reply on topic.

2. Barb DR shouldnt stack but Stalward Defender DR should. Game treats them identical.

The ruling is very clear.

At 5th level, a stalwart defender gains DR 1/—. At 7th level, this DR increases to 3/—, and at 10th level it increases to 5/—. Damage reduction from different sources does not stack; however, a stalwart defender of 5th or higher level that gains DR from armor (but not from any other source) increases his class-based DR by the value of the armor’s DR. Thus a 7th-level stalwart defender wearing adamantine full plate (DR 3/—) has DR 6/—.

That's a very specific feature of stalwart defender. I'm not talking about that.

Also, about sneak attack:
https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qqm

[bkgamingacc]

Yeah i just found out that one and edited just a min ago :)

[dwarner]

Originally posted by Mork:

1. I was pretty sure the multi sneak attack from ray spell was fixed a long time ago but no, just tested it and it still bug as you say.

2. For some reason adamantine armor give x/- dr and not x/adamantine. I don't know if its intended or not. Do /- dr stack in TT if they are from different source? Like stalwart and barbarian /- .

It turns out that Rays would be pretty weak if Sneaks didn't trigger on each Ray given how strong Weapons, Gear, and other abilities are. As it is I do more damage with my attacks than Scorching Ray so I slot other spells in. The higher level Rays can do more, but most of that isn't Sneak and per rest abilities get pretty stretched with all the fights. Time is money so rest spam isn't an option either.

Likewise even with DR stacking a lot of mobs do enough damage to burn through it if you're getting hit consistently, especially on crits.

On the whole they're both well balanced.

[Babbles]

Originally posted by Manuelman:

So, more and more, I'm realizing the ruleset is not like the TT. Yes, I understand that there are limitations in a videogame. I actually like some of the changes I've incorporated in my tables (the fact that ranged attacks can flank), but others are a bit iffy for me (flanking, yes, I understand that having to be opposite your enemy is tedious and dangerous, and difficult to do in a game that doesn't track positions, but that's the whole point of flanking, it's a risk-reward thing).

But I have recently found 2 that are just, a huge wtf.

First is that, when flanking, in ray attacks, i.e. scorching ray or any spell that has more than 1 ray, sneak attack applies to all rays, instead of just one. This is in direct contradiction of the TT rules for the sake of... not sure what, because it basically allows me to have 3-4 sneak attacks in some cases with just one standard action.

Second, is the fact that damage reduction stacks... I sincerely don't understand this one, because other kinds of bonuses don't stack. Deflection bonuses to AC don't stack if you just put on two +2 rings of protection, or if you have natural armor and a necklace of natural armor, so why damage reduction from adamantine armor stacks with damage reduction of a barbarian is a bit beyond me.

I don't know, I want to like the game, but since I've played so much TT I feel like every time something like this happens it's a bit of a hurdle for me.

tl;dr: why did you have to change so much random ♥♥♥♥ from the TT, owlcat?

EDIT: oh, and paizo as well, since they were also involved (and probably are the ones deciding on the rules, anyway).

There is a post on the Pathfinder Forums where a rule maker states, explicitly, rays do get seperate sneak attacks.

This game doesn't to DR well, play on a higher difficulty if this is an issue.

[Manuelman]

Originally posted by Babbles:

Originally posted by Manuelman:

So, more and more, I'm realizing the ruleset is not like the TT. Yes, I understand that there are limitations in a videogame. I actually like some of the changes I've incorporated in my tables (the fact that ranged attacks can flank), but others are a bit iffy for me (flanking, yes, I understand that having to be opposite your enemy is tedious and dangerous, and difficult to do in a game that doesn't track positions, but that's the whole point of flanking, it's a risk-reward thing).

But I have recently found 2 that are just, a huge wtf.

First is that, when flanking, in ray attacks, i.e. scorching ray or any spell that has more than 1 ray, sneak attack applies to all rays, instead of just one. This is in direct contradiction of the TT rules for the sake of... not sure what, because it basically allows me to have 3-4 sneak attacks in some cases with just one standard action.

Second, is the fact that damage reduction stacks... I sincerely don't understand this one, because other kinds of bonuses don't stack. Deflection bonuses to AC don't stack if you just put on two +2 rings of protection, or if you have natural armor and a necklace of natural armor, so why damage reduction from adamantine armor stacks with damage reduction of a barbarian is a bit beyond me.

I don't know, I want to like the game, but since I've played so much TT I feel like every time something like this happens it's a bit of a hurdle for me.

tl;dr: why did you have to change so much random ♥♥♥♥ from the TT, owlcat?

EDIT: oh, and paizo as well, since they were also involved (and probably are the ones deciding on the rules, anyway).

There is a post on the Pathfinder Forums where a rule maker states, explicitly, rays do get seperate sneak attacks.

This game doesn't to DR well, play on a higher difficulty if this is an issue.

Forums vs the official FAQ.

https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qqm

I'll stick with the FAQ for my tables.

EDIT: and DR per se is not an issue. It's the fact that it stacks, when in TT it is clearly stated it shouldnt. If anything, DR stacking is a cheese in favor of the player, because monsters are designed as is, and they are given a DR and that's it, but the player can stack adamantine + barbarian DR, for instance.