What is the point of heavy armors outside of early game?

[xunlaiAgent]

It occured to me that heavy armor might be underpowered. What is the point of heavy armor when you can get very high AC by simply dipping 1 level into monk and casting protective spells while wearing AC bracelets? Heavy armor also does not help against touch attacks and there are many enemies who use those in this game.

[Shadenuat]

By many you mean a single really dangerous enemy in the very end of the game?

You can reach 70 AC wearing heavy armor.

You are correct though that stuff like monk robes and bracers +8 are simply too easy to get and give you bonuses too good.

[xunlaiAgent]

Originally posted by Shadenuat:

By many you mean a single really dangerous enemy in the very end of the game?

You can reach 70 AC wearing heavy armor.

You are correct though that stuff like monk robes and bracers +8 are simply too easy to get and give you bonuses too good.

Right but my point is that you can get that much and more also for a naked caster. Druid in particular also gets immunity to critical attacks and sneak damage. I just don't think that it's fair for armor users, is all.

And yes I mostly mean the end game, i.e. from Pitax and onwards.

[Shadenuat]

There are classes like Barb/Archeologist/Alchemist who also get some protection against sneak (flanking)/flat footed/crits. There is also a helmet in the game which gives you immunity to crits.

Druid, of course, can be solid tank, but even 1-handed fighter with endgame weapon would probably outdamage Druid by far, even taking pet into consideration.

[xunlaiAgent]

Originally posted by Shadenuat:

There are classes like Barb/Archeologist/Alchemist who also get some protection against sneak (flanking)/flat footed/crits. There is also a helmet in the game which gives you immunity to crits.

Druid, of course, can be solid tank, but even 1-handed fighter with endgame weapon would probably outdamage Druid by far, even taking pet into consideration.

Hopefully so. Druid already does pretty good damage with the aoe spells though.

[jonnin]

Heavy armor is for low dex. Eg a cleric with a 12 dex, 18+ wis and decent str with a shield helping you off tank. Its for fighters who can use it WITH a dex bonus (over-riding the low dex default). Ill give you that with dex items in game, you can do without it. Call that a problem with itemization ... its not the armor's fault we have so many alternate ways to get tough and the enchanted heavies are just not keeping up with those.

[Winter Wolf]

This seems like a veiled request for a nerf of non-heavy armor modes of gaining armor class. If that's the case I disapprove. State what you mean. If you are instead asking how to use Heavy Armor most effectively I think Jonnin covered it mostly. Heavy Armor is a thing mostly because it was a thing at some point in our own history but the long view is that it is not the most effective way of staying alive. So there WILL be ways of defending (tanking) that surpass just donning a tin can suit and hoping for the best.

There are feats to help with making it more effective (Armor Focus: Heavy for eg) and you can go full on Heavy + Tower for the total turtle experience. Adamantite Heavy armors also give you some DR (Not a lot mind you but some.)

[Dixon Sider]

Heavy armor is useful because it gives you a lot of AC (Armor Class). AC is what determines if an enemy hits you. The higher your AC, the less often the enemy hits you.

[xycotta]

Originally posted by jonnin:

Heavy armor is for low dex. Eg a cleric with a 12 dex, 18+ wis and decent str with a shield helping you off tank. Its for fighters who can use it WITH a dex bonus (over-riding the low dex default). Ill give you that with dex items in game, you can do without it. Call that a problem with itemization ... its not the armor's fault we have so many alternate ways to get tough and the enchanted heavies are just not keeping up with those.

Yes and no, a fighter with mithril fullplate and armor training can get some decent dex going

[Kyutaru]

Heavy armor primarily is advantageous in situations where you are flat-flooted. The slower fighters with the low dexterity and no initiative bonus feats tend to use them because they'd rather use their feats on buffing their damage.

Not everyone feels like wasting feats on Weapon Finesse or Crane Style or buffing before literally every battle. Dispel magic normally exists in the Baldur's Gate games but here is conspicuously absent from most battles. Spellcasters and light armor dodgers rely on high touch AC but have some of the worst ACs in the game when they are flat-footed.

[xunlaiAgent]

Originally posted by Kyutaru:

Heavy armor primarily is advantageous in situations where you are flat-flooted. The slower fighters with the low dexterity and no initiative bonus feats tend to use them because they'd rather use their feats on buffing their damage.

Not everyone feels like wasting feats on Weapon Finesse or Crane Style or buffing before literally every battle. Dispel magic normally exists in the Baldur's Gate games but here is conspicuously absent from most battles. Spellcasters and light armor dodgers rely on high touch AC but have some of the worst ACs in the game when they are flat-footed.

But Druids and Wizards have a spell that make them immune to being flat-footed... Also the monsters have so high attack bonuses that even if you use the best armor in the game, they will hit you anyway if you are unbuffed and flat footed.

[xunlaiAgent]

Originally posted by Winter Wolf:

This seems like a veiled request for a nerf of non-heavy armor modes of gaining armor class. If that's the case I disapprove. State what you mean. If you are instead asking how to use Heavy Armor most effectively I think Jonnin covered it mostly. Heavy Armor is a thing mostly because it was a thing at some point in our own history but the long view is that it is not the most effective way of staying alive. So there WILL be ways of defending (tanking) that surpass just donning a tin can suit and hoping for the best.

There are feats to help with making it more effective (Armor Focus: Heavy for eg) and you can go full on Heavy + Tower for the total turtle experience. Adamantite Heavy armors also give you some DR (Not a lot mind you but some.)

I was mostly thinking about buffs for heavy armor. Maybe 50%-75% damage reduction or something.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by xunlaiAgent:

I was mostly thinking about buffs for heavy armor. Maybe 50% damage reduction or something.

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[Winter Wolf]

OK I will say this: I doubt very highly Owlcat will stray far from Pathfinder core rules outside of what is necessary. Whether that be a buff or nerf. Other than that you have to be very careful with a system like Pathfinder not to overbalance. Keeping in mind rules involving stuff like Armor affect all parties not just players. If you just want to the game to be easier that's what the slider is for. If you want the game to be more aesthetically pleasing well I am afraid that's unlikely.

[xunlaiAgent]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

Originally posted by xunlaiAgent:

I was mostly thinking about buffs for heavy armor. Maybe 50% damage reduction or something.

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Come on, it would still be worse than a druid with 90ac, immunity to critical damage, sneak attacks and flat footed. Make the damage reduction a high level trait or something.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by xunlaiAgent:

Originally posted by Kyutaru:

Heavy armor primarily is advantageous in situations where you are flat-flooted. The slower fighters with the low dexterity and no initiative bonus feats tend to use them because they'd rather use their feats on buffing their damage.

Not everyone feels like wasting feats on Weapon Finesse or Crane Style or buffing before literally every battle. Dispel magic normally exists in the Baldur's Gate games but here is conspicuously absent from most battles. Spellcasters and light armor dodgers rely on high touch AC but have some of the worst ACs in the game when they are flat-footed.

But Druids and Wizards have a spell that make them immune to being flat-footed... Also the monsters have so high attack bonuses that even if you use the best armor in the game, they will hit you anyway if you are unbuffed and flat footed.

Rogues have Uncanny Dodge that makes them immune, doesn't make any of these classes Fighters. Every buff you rely on is more spell slots and buffing time to consider, which means more resting. There's hardly anything a Displaced, Greater Invisible, Heroic, Hasted, Blessed, Energy Resisting, Death Warded, Inspired warrior can't beat but maintaining so many buffs consistently in every battle is the trick and so people reserve them for boss fights. The goal isn't to be unhittable just to mitigate some damage. A flat-footed caster tends to be one that hasn't cast his buffs yet and that usually means you weren't even aware combat was going to happen (ambushes occur). If you're fully buffing before fighting a wolf, there's a problem.