Monk

[Darkmoor1974]

I like playing monk in games like this so i wonder is monk a good chara to play ? if not any suggestion on other class.

[InEffect]

Monks are fine. Their only real problem is damage output.

[Caer Peris]

I don't know about this game, but in Pen and Paper they start to be good at about Level 6.

[Notabot187]

They are the best implemented class for punching things. If that is what you want your character to do then go for it. They can also make for respectable Dodge tanks if built correctly. They are fast enough to get to where they want to go. The start can be a bit painful as you don't get everything frontloaded.

[InEffect]

Actually the monk problems are quite the opposite. They are fine for a little while, but come endgame their damage in unimpressive to say the least. As to taking, there are better ways to reach 70/50 AC than getting more than 1 level of monk.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Actually the monk problems are quite the opposite. They are fine for a little while, but come endgame their damage in unimpressive to say the least. As to taking, there are better ways to reach 70/50 AC than getting more than 1 level of monk.

They are awful the first few levels because you'll either have 0 strength bonus or a strength penalty. Then you'll either get an agile fists neck or 3 levels of rogue, so minimum level 4, or closer to 6 if you wait for the necklace (although BTSL sells a necklace at the start).

Not to mention the fact that their AC isn't all that in the beginning. The nice +4ish you get from wisdom doesn't really make up for having no armor early on. Later when your wis and dex are buffed sky high and you have +dodge robes and +8 bracers of armor you can easily overtake heavy-armor+shield classes, but armored characters have the advantage early.

Or alternatively you could play a STR monk and be the squishiest squishy to ever squish at low levels due to lacking dex armor on top of lacking armor armor. Long term you end up doing slightly more damage (for a class that already has relatively bad damage) at the cost of noticeably less AC (for a class that WILL be a defacto tank whether you want them to or not)

[InEffect]

Let's say you have a level 1 monk with 18 str 14 dex and 17 wis. that's +5AC. Now add mage armor and you have 19AC. Then we add dodge and crane style to make fighting defensively usable. That's another 4 AC. So our str level 1 monk now has 23AC. Not so bad, eh? and that's before items. Might as well chug that potion monk comes with and add another 2 there. So our STR monk now has 25AC.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Let's say you have a level 1 monk with 18 str 14 dex and 17 wis. that's +5AC. Now add mage armor and you have 19AC. Then we add dodge and crane style to make fighting defensively usable. That's another 4 AC. So our str level 1 monk now has 23AC. Not so bad, eh? and that's before items. Might as well chug that potion monk comes with and add another 2 there. So our STR monk now has 25AC.

Meanwhile 14 dex, breast plate and medium shield gives you 20 AC without the wisdom overhead, can take dodge and medium armor (or shield) proficiency for the same feat-cost to get 22 and as soon as you find a +1 shield or armor you now have the same 23 ac that the monk only gets after he attacks something. This is a MEDIUM armor/shield we're talking about, so it's nowhere near the max AC and is therefor extra squishy.

[Shadenuat]

Can heavy armor reach high AC without suffer and also actually do something but standing there metaguy?

I am growing monk/dragon sorc shifter now to see how it goes, with extra gold and items from previous run have almost 40 AC on level 2. I decided to try 18 str 18 dex 18 cha start.

I can see TSS reaching high AC when dex penalties come off but what can a TSS even do? They can't even bash.

[InEffect]

Well... pure monks don't do much either, so that's not much of a competition. Even though pure STR monk will outpace fighter by level 5 give or take, but that's not the point.
Really, it's like debating diving into sewage with a flip or with no flip.

as to shifter sorc... main problem is getting there and the reality that melee sorc does about the same damage, but doesn't suffer all game for it.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by Shadenuat:

Can heavy armor reach high AC without suffer and also actually do something but standing there metaguy?

I am growing monk/dragon sorc shifter now to see how it goes, with extra gold and items from previous run have almost 40 AC on level 2. I decided to try 18 str 18 dex 18 cha start.

I can see TSS reaching high AC when dex penalties come off but what can a TSS even do? They can't even bash.

I think the only type of character heavy armor is good on is a divine caster. It allows them to eschew dex in order to pump their casting attribute and they should have self-buffs to make up for the drawbacks and lower late-game armor. Effortless Armor also helps a great deal to eliminate the movement penalty. That especially applies if your divine caster is not primarily reliant on weapon-based damage because then you can fully turtle up with a shield and still be "useful" for spellcasting.

Now exactly why you would go to all that trouble and put them on the front line in the first place is questionable, but I think there are playstyles that work around that.

Also I'm really enjoying my dragon shifter oracle. Sorc peaks a bit higher but takes more effort to work with and you've got to have a divine caster anyway. Shame oracle isn't included in the official game but the mod does a great job.

[Shadenuat]

Divine casters don't have any means of protection so only use you get of heavy armor for them is ai changing priority to mirror imaged wizard (good) and special effects on armor itself (eh, I ran barb barbarian in bracers of armor and +10 persuasion robe for intimidation).

Personally I see nothing in particular going on for heavy armor builds.

as to shifter sorc... main problem is getting there and the reality that melee sorc does about the same damage, but doesn't suffer all game for it.

First time I'm using Stone Fist spell lol.

Dammit I think I forgot to add someone into party who could cast magic fang. Arrrh.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by Shadenuat:

Divine casters don't have any means of protection so only use you get of heavy armor for them is ai changing priority to mirror imaged wizard (good) and special effects on armor itself (eh).

Personally I see nothing in particular going on for heavy armor builds.

Strictly divine casters(clerics, specifically) have a lot of ways of ramping AC and mirror could be supplemented by gyronna or that new belt... but problem is wasting all that on a cleric is... a waste. They are better served sitting somewhere in the back and never being in danger to begin with. And that almost all of that armor is natural so touch AC sucks, which is a no-go in this game.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by Shadenuat:

First time I'm using Stone Fist spell lol.

can't you just use the claws? and spells when the claws run out. You get more than enough rest for that in rogue dungeon. Or a staff.

[Shadenuat]

Early claws are 1d4, fist is 1d6.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by Shadenuat:

Early claws are 1d4, fist is 1d6.

Who cares. It's just 1avg damage before STR. Also your monk level will do the same and you will need that to survive the melee anyways.