How do you make Kineticist work?

[Sotanaht]

Some people seem to really like them, but all I see is a character with multiple primary stats and that needs to rest after every combat, so how do you make it work? If I could make a ranged Kineticist that was actually able to do damage as effectively as a ranged slayer or ranger it would round out my party really well

Also if it helps I'm using the turn based mod, so micromanaging abilities isn't a problem.

[Sotanaht]

Been giving the Keneticist a try. At level 1-2 it was pretty decent. Nobody can really do more than about 10 damage max at that level anyway, and the Kineticist hits way more often and has ranged. Fast forward to around level 6 and it's literally the worst class. In a rare exception to the premades being ♥♥♥♥, Kalikke is actually stronger than what you can make at that level, because she has Torrent at level 5 which you normally cannot get until level 9 because it requires Kineticist level 6 as a prereq and the next available purchase doesn't come until 9 (by then I expect it's pretty useless)

I expect after kineticist level 13 which is the earliest you can pick up Deadly Earth (req kineticst 12) they become pretty strong, but until that point the best you can do is make them a Dazzling Display bot. My bow-Slayer currently averages around 6x the damage per round with Devourer of Metal and rarely struggles to actually hit either at this point.

[InEffect]

Well, if the strongest class in the game is not good enough for you - there is nothing that can be done.

[Takkik]

in the endless dungeon, my water/earth kineticist that was mostly using slick(at will one round grease) all the time early on was still the best dps of my team. At some point with gather low, you can use empower all the time, then at some point you discard emp for composite blast at will and later on you can add back empower.
They are like an arcane trickster lvl 10 (so a lvl 14-15 char) but with at will spells. And at melee range you can make multiple attacks with trip.

The only think I miss is more utility abilities. It's Water>Fire>earth>air option wise. Air as first choice don't give you lot of options, when water have at will grease, healing, tsunamy, energy resists and bull rush infusion. Air only have endgame form infusions.

Composite blasts do 2 ticks of damage, 1 for each element (a magma blast will do 1/2 physical & 1/2 fire).

[haplok]

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Been giving the Keneticist a try. At level 1-2 it was pretty decent. Nobody can really do more than about 10 damage max at that level anyway, and the Kineticist hits way more often and has ranged. Fast forward to around level 6 and it's literally the worst class. In a rare exception to the premades being ♥♥♥♥, Kalikke is actually stronger than what you can make at that level, because she has Torrent at level 5 which you normally cannot get until level 9 because it requires Kineticist level 6 as a prereq and the next available purchase doesn't come until 9 (by then I expect it's pretty useless)

I expect after kineticist level 13 which is the earliest you can pick up Deadly Earth (req kineticst 12) they become pretty strong, but until that point the best you can do is make them a Dazzling Display bot. My bow-Slayer currently averages around 6x the damage per round with Devourer of Metal and rarely struggles to actually hit either at this point.

At level 7 you get to pick a 2nd element and, depending on your choice, composite blasts become a possibility. Meanwhile you should be using Empower.
At level 11 you get Wall Infusion, which is a nice persistant line aoe with no save.

You mentioned Dazzling Display bot, so I'd guess you picked Fire. It allows Dreadful Carnage ridiculously early. But you should also have Fan of Flames for your early aoe needs.
At level 9 you can then pick Eruption (or Bowling Infusion....), which is far superior to Torrent (although the compatibility with composite blasts other then blue flame is limited, I guess... still can use Empower).

[Aramitama]

Kineticist is a bit weird for the main campaign I feel. You shoot silly blasts 3/4 of the game then you get lvl 16(?) and cloud and win.
In the endless dungeon on floor 50 im just using 2 of them because i got tired of dealing with Golems. But in the main game with companions and w/o cheesing xp i just dont see the point...

[InEffect]

deadly earth is level 13.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by haplok:

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Been giving the Keneticist a try. At level 1-2 it was pretty decent. Nobody can really do more than about 10 damage max at that level anyway, and the Kineticist hits way more often and has ranged. Fast forward to around level 6 and it's literally the worst class. In a rare exception to the premades being ♥♥♥♥, Kalikke is actually stronger than what you can make at that level, because she has Torrent at level 5 which you normally cannot get until level 9 because it requires Kineticist level 6 as a prereq and the next available purchase doesn't come until 9 (by then I expect it's pretty useless)

I expect after kineticist level 13 which is the earliest you can pick up Deadly Earth (req kineticst 12) they become pretty strong, but until that point the best you can do is make them a Dazzling Display bot. My bow-Slayer currently averages around 6x the damage per round with Devourer of Metal and rarely struggles to actually hit either at this point.

At level 7 you get to pick a 2nd element and, depending on your choice, composite blasts become a possibility. Meanwhile you should be using Empower.
At level 11 you get Wall Infusion, which is a nice persistant line aoe with no save.

You mentioned Dazzling Display bot, so I'd guess you picked Fire. It allows Dreadful Carnage ridiculously early. But you should also have Fan of Flames for your early aoe needs.
At level 9 you can then pick Eruption (or Bowling Infusion....), which is far superior to Torrent (although the compatibility with composite blasts other then blue flame is limited, I guess... still can use Empower).

Dreadful Carnage only works if the character can last-hit, and when it's the second weakest damage dealer in the party (after the wizard, though the wizard at least has the OPTION to do more) that isn't very often. It's also self-centered as is the standard Dazzling Display with a fairly short range, so unless you deliberately move your character into the middle of the enemy you won't actually hit them with it most of the time even when you do trigger it, which is usually when the fight is over anyway. I'm trying still, but I'm not impressed.

Fan of Flames is basically identical to Burning Hands. It's a short range, very low damage AOE that tends to do as much friendly fire as not. You also lose any sneak attacks you might have. Unless the enemy just happens to be piled up in one spot, you probably do more damage with the default blasts and even if they are it's risky to bring the Kineticist that close to melee. Synergizes better with Dazzling Display/Dreadful Carnage though.

Composite blasts with the exception of Blue Flame are all physical, meaning they roll vs full AC instead of touch AC. You can't really afford to use them at all until kineticst level 11 (supercharge), and even then you have to drop Empower to use them in one round, which means you gain a total of 33% damage at the cost of targeting full AC.

[InEffect]

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

when it's the second weakest damage dealer in the party (after the wizard [...])

lol. Something is seriously wrong with your build, not with the class.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by InEffect:

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

when it's the second weakest damage dealer in the party (after the wizard [...])

lol. Something is seriously wrong with your build, not with the class.

I'm using your build (the unfair kineticist). The problem is I'm level 8. From about level 3 to 13 they are easily the weakest class period.

Maybe k9 (bowling infusion) or k11 (wall) might bring the power level up, but I really don't expect it before k13 (deadly earth).

When my Slayer can pull off 120 damage in a round exactly after my Kineticist does 30, or the Mad Dog+Pet can do almost 200 combined (granted, the mad dog's weapon is a little cheaty for base game because I'm using the crafting mod, Oversized Fauchard +3, Impact, Flaming, Corrosive, Keen, slayer just uses an unmodified Devourer of Metal). Hell, even my Sensei monk can do 2-3 hits for ~20 each and they are purely designed as a tank/support.

[Takkik]

You just don't know how to use the class, or screwed something with the character. Fan of flan use your full blast dmg, it's far superior to burning hand and keep improving. AOE form infusions are save>half, or no save, that mean you don't care about the AC at this point. (and I don't understand the loose of sneak dmg, kineticist don't need sneak dmg).

Kineticist have spell like abilities at will, and like wizard have option to do more by accepting burns (empower/maximize, composite blast etc...).

In the end, your slayer will perhaps have better solo target dpr, but can your slayer AOE a full room with trip + constant dmg ? Create a wall that push enemies back? Build in AOE CC & DMG is in the end far superior.

Actualy I find my fire/water kineticist weaker than my previous Water+earth. In the endless dungeon, hitting with physical blast was never a problem, got plenty of tankiness, and fire unique forms only really work with fire & blue flame.

[InEffect]

Then it's how you use it. Just blast things away with elemental blasts. You should be level 8.5-9 at troll fort if you are doing things right.
Gather power low to bring down the empower or composite blast(depending where you are at). Once you get wall use it in front of your guys and hold position so they don't run into it.

Also anything with cheat items will outdamage kineticist. And sure won't outdamage him on unfair where RTA's actually matter.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by Takkik:

You just don't know how to use the class, or screwed something with the character. Fan of flan use your full blast dmg, it's far superior to burning hand and keep improving. AOE form infusions are save>half, or no save, that mean you don't care about the AC at this point. (and I don't understand the loose of sneak dmg, kineticist don't need sneak dmg).

Kineticist have spell like abilities at will, and like wizard have option to do more by accepting burns (empower/maximize, composite blast etc...).

In the end, your slayer will perhaps have better solo target dpr, but can your slayer AOE a full room with trip + constant dmg ? Create a wall that push enemies back? Build in AOE CC & DMG is in the end far superior.

Actualy I find my fire/water kineticist weaker than my previous Water+earth. In the endless dungeon, hitting with physical blast was never a problem, got plenty of tankiness, and fire unique forms only really work with fire & blue flame.

Fan of flame does half damage minus sneak attacks after reflex save (has thug 1, so that's 2d6 sneak attack lost). Kineticist lacks abilities to push their saving throws to high levels, so enemies will pretty much always succeed that reflex save. If you aren't hitting at least 4 targets (assuming half damage -2d6 each), you are doing less damage per hit assuming you hit every time with the basic blast.

There is absolutely NO utility in Fire, nor can Fire trip. The earliest I can get trip is level 9, and the earliest I get a trip AOE is level 11.

Originally posted by InEffect:

Then it's how you use it. Just blast things away with elemental blasts. You should be level 9 at troll fort if you are doing things right.
Gather power low to bring down the empower or composite blast(depending where you are at). Once you get wall use it in front of your guys and hold position so they don't run into it.

Also anything with cheat items will outdamage kineticist. And sure won't outdamage him on unfair where RTA's actually matter.

Troll fort is level 6 if you play the game normally (full party, shared XP). 9 is the Bloom which is the next thing on my to do list. Yes the Mad Dog is an unfair comparison, but the Smilodon ALONE does more than triple the Kineticist's damage at character level 8 (about 20 per hit, up to 6 times all with full attack bonus and pounce, so they can charge+full attack). The slayer uses a purely base-game item, so that's totally fair.

Why won't you admit that the Kineticist ONLY does anything of value later in the game (13+). All I've been saying is that they suck for low-mid game. A good reliable aoe trip even if the damage is kind of meh (and it is) is definitely powerful late-game if you can get there.

[InEffect]

Fan of flames is literally there to deal with early-game trash. You also get kineticist crown the moment you get to A2 to ramp the damage and can burn yourself to ramp even more AB. Pets bloody die on unfair. Their only use is soaking some odd 100-200 damage.

[Shadenuat]

Ran random dungeon from character level 1 to 15, fire Kineticist was top damager whole run since she got into the party. Infinite fan of flames, infinite touch attacks, magma Wall.

[InEffect]

And about exp. Just entered troll fort. Party of 6(now) Everyone is from 8.5 to 9.5.
https://i.imgur.com/f7elxX1.png