3-man party on Hard beneath the stolen lands

[joy.kafka]

This pure dungeon DLC is awesome. Definitely worth if for anyone who has or even hasn't finished the main story. I have finished the main game with a 4-man party on Unfair difficulty, beginning with Challenging, most of the time on Hard, then switched to Unfair for final chapters.

Now with only 3 beneath the stolen lands, I couldn't believe how ineffectively I'd played before!

My first run was with Alchemist, Fighter and Wizard. My second run was with Rogue, Paladin and Sorcerer. The Dual Wield melee is usually at the front line, with the 2H melee the second, and the caster in the back.

In the beginning my team was struggling due to the lack of heals or buffs. It's hard to describe my feeling when finally my team not only survived but won like a breeze without these spells.

The next problem to come was the lack of effective attacks and spells. My solution was to leave alone those spells that could be purchased, and then leave alone summon spells and feats! I couldn't believe what I have gained in return - it's a whole new ammunition depot, and a whole new path towards victory!

Hopefully a few findings of mine could be of any help to you. Many of them might be just obvious to experienced players and simply neglected by me.

1. Information
Sneak in the rooms with high STEALTH and check the enemy information with high KNOWLEDGE (Arcana / World) and LORE (Nature). Check their Fortitude, Reflex and Will and find out where to place the debuff and in what sequence, for example, Sirocco, Obsidian Flow and Glitterdust, respectively. Find out who is the toughest guy and decide whether to finish him first or last. See if there is anyone hiding behind dealing ranged attacks without your notice and find a way to stop it. Also see if any of them could be very likely taken out by some one-shot spells.


2. Vision
Vision is ultra important. When we couldn't see or perceive the location of the enemies, we lose our DEX to AC, in addition to a bonus added to their attacks, and "Vice Versa". We can use Displacement to hide ourselves and Glitterdust to reveal the enemies and blind them for example. They together would overturn the disadvantage. Dex Based melee characters may consider learning Improved Blind Fight, since it would save the spell slots of Eccolocation and other spells before reaching the level of eccolocation.


3. Initiative & Flatfooted
This is also very important for Casters and most Melees. With high initiative, a caster could place 2 or even 3 debuffs (prone, ability damage, etc) before the enemies reach you. With high initiative, the melees could hit while the enemies are flatfooted (unable to react soon enough), the first few hits are decisive since these hits could also land different kinds of effects, such as shaken, blinded, bewildered, etc, so that the following attacks could land successfully. Except heavy armor wearers who don't lose much DEX to AC bonus, my team also won't be hit flatfooted.


4. Reach Weapon
2H Fighter with a 6ft weapon, built for Cleaves and Crits, is very powerful imho.

For a Paladin, he doesn't have enough feats to be anywhere close to a 2H fighter, but the reach weapon, when enlarged, has an attack range as of a ranged weapon. This allows the paladin to attack at a distance from those who are trapped in the combo of Sirocco, Obsidian Flow, etc. The reach is very valuable since on the one hand he doesn't need to learn the feats for ranged weapons and on the other the Paladin's buffs on his weapon wouldn't be wasted. An additional benefit is the Paladin is less likely to be surrounded by the enemies and therefore able to cast spells more safely.


５. Crowd Control
Information is the key to successful crowd control. For the purpose of CC, my sorcerer has +2 Conjuration Focus, +2 Evocation Focus, +2 Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative & Hare Familiar, plus Metamagic Heighten. There are too many possibilities about what spell and focus to take, but mine does not use damaging spells except scorching rays, magic missiles and cantrips. The reason? It would greatly compromise CC capability if the caster is also to learn damage spells and summon spells, since the CC spells that could be learnt/memorised and cast per day would be greatly decreased. The difference is huge. The damage, if really needed, could come from Sense Vital and Empower Rod.

Don't forget about Dimension Door. It could be very useful in case the front door is not an ideal place for engagement.



Note: The above is only based upon my 3-man parties in the dungeon DLC up to mid levels (13), without any other DLC such as pit spells or tieflings. There are also other classes I haven't played. What I learnt might not be applicable in all cases.

Have fun gaming.

Edit: Removed less important points.

[Grifta]

Have you tried Tower Shield Specialist, Reach Thug, Ecclesitheurge/Empyreal Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge?

[joy.kafka]

Originally posted by Grifta:

Have you tried Tower Shield Specialist, Reach Thug, Ecclesitheurge/Empyreal Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge?

Sorry, I misread your phrase so I rewrote my reponse.
So far I ddn't find a strong need to use a shield and with so few members I'd go for higher offense.
I will think about it in my next run but for now there are 4 classes already in my 3-man party. I feel most functions are there and therefore adding a multiclass hasn't come to my mind yet.

[Dixon Sider]

With less people, TSS will become more useful IMO.

[joy.kafka]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

With less people, TSS will become more useful IMO.

My teams actually don't feel the need for a tank or higher AC, but would you mind sharing how you would use a TSS for 3-man party? What would be the classes of the other two if one of them is TSS?

[Blood Flowers]

From my experience (I've gone 110 floors in one run on Unfair), a 3-man party will likely not work on Unfair once you get the more difficult floors (30+ with Constructs / Wild Hunt). I'm not entirely certain how much easier they would be on Hard, though I suspect it's still not enough to run it as a 3-man.

You typically need two frontline characters with high touch AC (for the Wild Hunt) and some sort of non-magic based damage dealer (for the Constructs). You also need characters that can buff - specifically an arcane caster that can cast Foresight and an Alchemist with infusions - though you can probably forego Divine spells.

Q: Why do you need two frontline characters?
A: Once enemies start to swarm up (say 10-15 and later on 30+ per room), you sort of need to have frontline to distract them. You also just need characters that have high enough saves to tank Skillfully Crafted Golden Golems (you want a character with 24 Will and 24 Fortitude on Unfair, not sure on Hard) and high enough AC to tank Greater Autumn Golems (55 AB on Unfair). You need two because enemies will drop aggro and look for a close target to reaggro (hopefully your second tank and not your backline).

Q: Why Foresight?
A: I'm not sure as to why exactly, but without it, sometimes your character will be considered flat-footed in the rooms with Wild Hunt (and no, this is not an affect of a status effect nor does greater blind fight do anything to alleviate this). Don't ask me as to why this is the case, but it essentially means your tanks get instantly shredded.

Q: Why not just CC them?
A: You literally can't. The enemies at some point have ridiculous saves (+50s across the board), though that's really far down. More likely, by the floor 30-40, the enemies will have saves that you can't reliably overcome (+25/30). Those saves might be a little lower on Hard.

[joy.kafka]

Originally posted by Blood Flowers:

From my experience (I've gone 110 floors in one run on Unfair), a 3-man party will likely not work on Unfair once you get the more difficult floors (30+ with Constructs / Wild Hunt). I'm not entirely certain how much easier they would be on Hard, though I suspect it's still not enough to run it as a 3-man.

You typically need two frontline characters with high touch AC (for the Wild Hunt) and some sort of non-magic based damage dealer (for the Constructs). You also need characters that can buff - specifically an arcane caster that can cast Foresight and an Alchemist with infusions - though you can probably forego Divine spells.

Q: Why do you need two frontline characters?
A: Once enemies start to swarm up (say 10-15 and later on 30+ per room), you sort of need to have frontline to distract them. You also just need characters that have high enough saves to tank Skillfully Crafted Golden Golems (you want a character with 24 Will and 24 Fortitude on Unfair, not sure on Hard) and high enough AC to tank Greater Autumn Golems (55 AB on Unfair). You need two because enemies will drop aggro and look for a close target to reaggro (hopefully your second tank and not your backline).

Q: Why Foresight?
A: I'm not sure as to why exactly, but without it, sometimes your character will be considered flat-footed in the rooms with Wild Hunt (and no, this is not an affect of a status effect nor does greater blind fight do anything to alleviate this). Don't ask me as to why this is the case, but it essentially means your tanks get instantly shredded.

Q: Why not just CC them?
A: You literally can't. The enemies at some point have ridiculous saves (+50s across the board), though that's really far down. More likely, by the floor 30-40, the enemies will have saves that you can't reliably overcome (+25/30). Those saves might be a little lower on Hard.

Blood Flowers,

Very informative and much appreciated.

I haven't thought of going that deep at all! It seems most runs will be finished very quickly.

High saves:
Starting at level 13/14, My Pal and Soc have 20 in average on Will / Reflex / Fortitude with Divine Grace and Bestow Grace (CHA boost). Perhaps I should replace Rogue with a Monk.

Autumn Golems:
Very tough indeed. What I can manage to do so far is jump into a head-on damage race, taking the initiative to blind and apply debuff through weapons with swift true strike. At the same time CC the rest as far as possible. Yep could imagine it'll be getting very unreliable if going deeper. Should be some better strategies that I haven't found.

Blindfight & Flatfooted:
Greater Blind fight takes effect only when you can pinpoint the hidden attackers. Perhaps higher perception can help. GBF has no range limit but our vision has. Eccolcation has a range of 40 ft. Perhaps we may let a high stealth char with invisibility and see invisibility (or else) to scout the rooms first, if at all possible though.

DC & CC:
Are there no items that help increase the DC? Probably the spell level, character level and metamagic heighten shouldn't have a cap if it's possible to go that deep, 110th floor !!

Added:
Aslo true seeing, 120 ft, but still it doesn't help to see through obstacles such as pillars or fog. We would still be shot from a distance flat footed if we couldn't "sense" where it comes from.

[joy.kafka]

I found the calculation simplified as below. Perhaps you can verify with the real situation.

Invisibility Perception Modifier
Not Moving DC + 20
Stealth + 20 (or else, perhaps higher)
Distance + 5 @ 50 feet
Behind sth + 5 depends
= +50

Our Perception Skill level say 30
@ 20 Ranks: You gain a +10 bonus on Perception checks to notice invisible creatures or objects. The distance modifier on the DC of Perception checks you attempt is reduced to +1 per 60 feet.

(30 + 10 + d20) against (46)

Blindness automatically fails the above Perception checks based on sight while Blindsight / Blind-sense (eccolocation) bypass the above perception check provided that it has line of effect to that creature. The obstacles could also be a big creature.

In a word, no skill or spells are 100% reliable. :(

[joy.kafka]

Tested Scaled Fist + Hospitaler + Sorcerer, works even better!

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by joy.kafka:

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

With less people, TSS will become more useful IMO.

My teams actually don't feel the need for a tank or higher AC, but would you mind sharing how you would use a TSS for 3-man party? What would be the classes of the other two if one of them is TSS?

If I was to make a party, I would stick to the 4 generic archetypes in RPG. I would make sure to have 1 rogue-type, 1 tank-type, 1 healer, and 1 DPS/CC mage

If I had to pick, I would go Thundercaller Bard, TSS Fighter, base Paladin, and arcane bomber Wizard

[Dixon Sider]

nvm, I was thinking 4 man party lol... 1 main + 3 companions. 3 would be difficult. Maybe the same comp as above but without the bard. If I had to go in with just 3

But tanking is important because you are going to want to hold choke points often as possible

[joy.kafka]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

Originally posted by joy.kafka:

My teams actually don't feel the need for a tank or higher AC, but would you mind sharing how you would use a TSS for 3-man party? What would be the classes of the other two if one of them is TSS?

If I was to make a party, I would stick to the 4 generic archetypes in RPG. I would make sure to have 1 rogue-type, 1 tank-type, 1 healer, and 1 DPS/CC mage

If I had to pick, I would go Thundercaller Bard, TSS Fighter, base Paladin, and arcane bomber Wizard

The 4-man party I used to go through the main story was - Thundercaller, 2H Fighter, Grenadier and Wizard. Thundercaller Dual wield front line.

[joy.kafka]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

nvm, I was thinking 4 man party lol... 1 main + 3 companions. 3 would be difficult. Maybe the same comp as above but without the bard. If I had to go in with just 3

But tanking is important because you are going to want to hold choke points often as possible

Bard, vivisectionist, rogue are the tanks for my previous 3 parties. Now I am using the scaled fist, probably the most tanky one so far.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by joy.kafka:

Bard, vivisectionist, rogue are the tanks for my previous 3 parties. Now I am using the scaled fist, probably the most tanky one so far.

Ya, a lot of people say monks are good for tanking. All you really need are the right feats and good CON to be reliable as a tank. I mostly prefer full BAB classes for tanking though.

[joy.kafka]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

Originally posted by joy.kafka:

Bard, vivisectionist, rogue are the tanks for my previous 3 parties. Now I am using the scaled fist, probably the most tanky one so far.

Ya, a lot of people say monks are good for tanking. All you really need are the right feats and good CON to be reliable as a tank. I mostly prefer full BAB classes for tanking though.

Just did the autumn golem again with Monk/Pal/Soc and found the fight went unexpectedly smooth.

I think the problem was the "sizes". It seems nice to have two gigantic figures at the front line while the second can hit with a reach weapon, better than a normal sized human at the front line. There might be another advantages - With the two giants blocking the line of sight. my third line might have a good chance to enjoy attacking from concealment.

I might prefer to attack with full BAB than defend with full BAB. Besides, mostly I don't really enjoy using the concept of "tanking" since there is no aggro in this game anyway. By the way all my 3 chars, or actually most of my chars have 10 CON.

[haplok]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

Originally posted by joy.kafka:

Bard, vivisectionist, rogue are the tanks for my previous 3 parties. Now I am using the scaled fist, probably the most tanky one so far.

Ya, a lot of people say monks are good for tanking. All you really need are the right feats and good CON to be reliable as a tank. I mostly prefer full BAB classes for tanking though.

Monks are Full BAB in Kingmaker....