Classes/Archetypes You didn't Expect to Like or Dislike

[New Willinium]

So I've been delving back into Pathfinder Kingmaker these past few weeks and, after using the Dungeon DLC as a testing bed (usually going until team wipe), I have discovered that there are quite a few classes or archetypes in particular that I have been surprised by in my playtests of them.

For the favorable surprises:

Crusaders: So I have always turned my nose up at the Crusader for being a hamstrung Cleric that loses out on several domain spells in favor of some more feats. . . but having actually played one I have discovered that they can be built into shockingly powerful and hardy Paladin-Esque character that does not have the Alignment Restriction.

Slayer: Now the Slayer is the newest base class to be added to this game and despite it having been a few months I had never really heard much about them from anyone. So I decided to roll up my sleeves and try them out. . . only to find that they are a pretty fun and interesting class to play. They're kind of like a Ranger/Fighter mixed class that has a pretty powerful targeted enemy ability that can simply help wreck house. This is in addition to being able to more easily specialize into a combat style as well. Also Sneak Attack which is always nice and their only downside is that they are unable to cast ANY spells whatsoever.

*Addendum: I still need to test the Archetype with the Domain. I am curious to see if that will give them a limited amount of spells.

Eldritch Scoundrel: Now the Eldritch Scoundrel is a character class that I have heard nothing positive about, usually people calling it a trap, and yet in my time testing it . . . I honestly found myself having a LOT of fun with the class. It reminded me a lot of a Magus and a Rogue mixed together. Which I think was kind of the point but still found them to be, if not sturdy or overly powerful, a pretty fun and adaptive FACE character for the party. I wonder if them going Eldritch Knight would make them a bit more hardy and capable in melee combat? That would give that Prestige class an actual use now that the Eldritch Scion all but made it redundant.

Disfavorable Surprises:

And then there were the classes I thought I would like only to either be disappointed in them for one reason or another. . .starting with. . .

Flamewarden: The Flame Warden is a Ranger Archetype that sacrifices their pet in exchange for some fire spells and a ability to set his blades on fire for a minute with increasing damage as they level. This Fire-Blade ability eventually upgrades to explode on critical hits. . . UNFORTUNATELY however the spells that the Flame Warden gets do NOT make up for the loss of a pet, and the Flame Blade ability is so short term (Always lasts a Single Minute) and takes so long to activate that it is near functionly useless compared to any other Ranger Archetype. I had such high hopes for this one.

Blight Druid: The Blight Druid was an interesting idea that simply fell flat in my eyes. Not because they were *particularly* bad but simply because they seemed to fill this weird niche where they were neither excellent healers like the Cleric nor were they great damage or support characters like a Wizard. Instead the Druid seems to excel at Crowd Control spells . . . which I am abyssmal at utilizing without entrapping my own team within them . . especially with the Pit spells.

At the very least theses were my experiences trying out some new classes now that I've comeback to the game. But what about the rest of y'all? Are there any classes that you didn't think you would like or vice-versa? What about the Archetypes? Why and what made you turn around on them?

[dwarner]

Like: Alchemist - Jub hits all the right buttons, Freebooter - makes up for the pet in so many ways

I built a Crusader too - there's a super narrow window where it's good (shield basher) but in that window it does what it needs to. First Playthrough was Eldritch Scoundrel - basically a fair Sword Saint. Solid with Image, Evasion, Dodge, and greater Double Debilitating.

Dislike: Eldritch Archer. It's a base Magus with Ranged Spellstrike tacked on and nothing else. Special feats are all melee and can't even cast Hurricane Bow. Here's a cool Flamewarden:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1883865934

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1883866869

But yeah, agree that you don't get much from Flamewarden itself.

[Orange]

I've to disagree with the Eldritch Knight statement... The Eldritch Scion is a fighter who dabbled into magic, the EK is still full caster with 9th level spell acess ( and full wizard spell list acess) but with more survivability than a normal caster and a +16 BAB pre-buffed (+1 than the pre-buffed Magus). Its disadvantage is having to wait till double digits to become online

Like: Bards & Inquisitors
A nice blend of magic & physical in one character from the get go, plus the freedom to be any role if specialized right. Also skills... daddy likes skills

Dislike: Wizards... poor guys got the shaft here. In theory better than a sorcerer due to versatility but with lack of crafting, scroll scribbing or wand replenishment they just fall too behind in a setting with excessive emphasis on combat encounters.
Not to mention i can only see a use for the generalist simply for ability to apply empowered/maximize/quicken metamagics to the 7th, 8th and 9th level spells for free.

Magus, easily a powerful class. But i cant shake the feeling im married to the first 3 touch spells with metamagics slapped on them, very little reason to go blaster unless you're actively boosting the casting stat plus a bloodline but at that point why not go full spellcaster and have more spell variation?

[Stink Bug]

Fully agree with the Eldritch Scoundrel. The min-maxxers did indeed call it useless and a trap, but getting full debilitations, full caster levels, 3/4 BAB and access to advanced rogue talents (albeit at a reduced rate) in addition to the full wizard spell list up to level 6 makes it a really fun alternative to the standard arcane trickster meta, especially if you want to go TWF and melee.

[Pink Eye]

Originally posted by Stink Bug:

Fully agree with the Eldritch Scoundrel. The min-maxxers did indeed call it useless and a trap, but getting full debilitations, full caster levels, 3/4 BAB and access to advanced rogue talents (albeit at a reduced rate) in addition to the full wizard spell list up to level 6 makes it a really fun alternative to the standard arcane trickster meta, especially if you want to go TWF and melee.

What meta?
This game has no meta. Classes are about as good or bad depending on your experience, knowledge, and how you approach the game.

[New Willinium]

Originally posted by Pink Eye:

Originally posted by Stink Bug:

Fully agree with the Eldritch Scoundrel. The min-maxxers did indeed call it useless and a trap, but getting full debilitations, full caster levels, 3/4 BAB and access to advanced rogue talents (albeit at a reduced rate) in addition to the full wizard spell list up to level 6 makes it a really fun alternative to the standard arcane trickster meta, especially if you want to go TWF and melee.

What meta?
This game has no meta. Classes are about as good or bad depending on your experience, knowledge, and how you approach the game.

I believe by Meta they are referring to the kind of powergaming multiclassing that InEffect used to talk about back in the day. With every build needing a level of Vivisectionist or Monk for Crane Style.

[superlovi]

Yeah aficionado of eldrich scounderl here too. Much stronger than expected, actually better as SC than multiclass with EK imho ( ek is better for a full caster base, with scoundrel base you will get max 6 lvl spell anyway so not worth to lose advaved rogue talents).
Too bad that you can't stack agility like str in this game, but have to care about only 1 stat surely have some good returns.

If you stick to SC up to lvl 20 you get also a very nice capstone ability, since between fear effects ( dazzling ecc) and improved invisibility you should be able to basically sneak attack everything that is not straight immune to it. So they have to pass a save of ~30 or die istantly. Ring of circumstance gives you +2 to dex and +1 to DC of spell and ability, so it is a +2 to that DC.

P.S.: acid fog probably is bugged, if you fight INSIDE IT, enemies get up to -16 to attack, you get -2, so free cheese for you

[deuxhero]

Dislike:
Paladin: So many of the foes you fight are actually chaotic neutral, even the nameless bandits.

[76561198249640122]

On paper, the Eldritch Archer was exactly what I wanted to play, in practice it is very very bad.

While the Paladin is not a bad class per se, it 's not as interesting as it could have been because of the game's setting and bestiary. I still like Hospitalers though.

I do like Bards a lot more than I expected to, the Thundercaller is great fun and even the basic kit is amazing with some of the advanced songs (Dirge of Doom and Fascinate).

And finally, while I initially disliked the Ecclesitheurge (because it was bugged to all hell at release and because I hate Tristian), it ended up being the best Cleric around as far as I am concerned.

Originally posted by New Willinium:

I wonder if them going Eldritch Knight would make them a bit more hardy and capable in melee combat? That would give that Prestige class an actual use now that the Eldritch Scion all but made it redundant.

The Eldritch Knight is far from redundant and extremely useful if you like melee casters with actual spell lists (such as a Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple).

[dwarner]

Originally posted by vicethevandal:

On paper, the Eldritch Archer was exactly what I wanted to play, in practice it is very very bad.

While the Paladin is not a bad class per se, it 's not as interesting as it could have been because of the game's setting and bestiary. I still like Hospitalers though.

I do like Bards a lot more than I expected to, the Thundercaller is great fun and even the basic kit is amazing with some of the advanced songs (Dirge of Doom and Fascinate).

And finally, while I initially disliked the Ecclesitheurge (because it was bugged to all hell at release and because I hate Tristian), it ended up being the best Cleric around as far as I am concerned.

Originally posted by New Willinium:

I wonder if them going Eldritch Knight would make them a bit more hardy and capable in melee combat? That would give that Prestige class an actual use now that the Eldritch Scion all but made it redundant.

The Eldritch Knight is far from redundant and extremely useful if you like melee casters with actual spell lists (such as a Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple).

Nailed it. Before the very end game there’s more evil than I thought, at least on fights where you can really use the boost.

[dwarfpcfan]

Pleasantly surprised: Alchemist, especially Vivisectionist.
Disappointed: Wizard because the lack of access to the tools that make them so good means if you want to play a wizard, you should instead play a sage sorcerer or an arcane bloodline sorcerer as you'll get much better bang for your buck

[jsaving]

Pleasantly surprised:

Thundercaller - The vanilla bard is so strong that I didn't expect to like a kit whose main claim to fame was a multi-use soundburst spell. But thundercall bypasses spell resistance and has among the highest DCs in the game, which gives the thundercaller a nice niche.

Grenadier - Vivs seemed so self-evidently strong at first glance that other alchemist kits were obviously weak by comparison. However the grenadier's unique combination of party buffs and AoE bombs make him considerably stronger than is commonly realized.

Disappointed:

Feycaller - The game doesn't mention this kit having a scaled-back attack progression. You can make it work if you go with a mirror image shapeshift build, but most players don't think to do that because of the feycaller's delayed shapeshift progression.

Viv - The game doesn't mention that vivs receive a subpar selection of advanced talents. 10d6 sneak attack plus transformation aren't bad at endgame but many players only use viv for a one-level dip, which costs AB without adding much value beyond a ten-minute buff.

[Sohamkar]

Anyone have tried Kinetic Knight. I have tried multiple times to squeeze something out of that archetype. Never succeeded. In the mid game it fell grandly.

The new Aldori Swordlord prestige class is awesome though. I have tried the Aldori Duellist build (courtesy: neoseeker). Link given below. It will do what it meant to do and very lore friendly.

*Aldori Duellist Build https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-kingmaker/builds/Main_Character*

[haplok]

Originally posted by jsaving:

Viv - The game doesn't mention that vivs receive a subpar selection of advanced talents. 10d6 sneak attack plus transformation aren't bad at endgame but many players only use viv for a one-level dip, which costs AB without adding much value beyond a ten-minute buff.

Crippling Strike is sub-par? Since when? Also once you unlock Vivi Advanced Talents, you can pick Bard (like Archeologist for Uncanny Dodge and Mirror Image and maybe Dragon Disciple access - extra Bite) or Rogue (for UD + Debilitation) levels and pick stuff like Opportunist and Double Debilitation on their even levels.

Vivi Discoveries are nothing to sneeze at either. Feral Mutagen might just be the single strongest ability for the 1st half of the game (that you get at level 2!). Then there are Feral Wings, crit, sneak attack resistances; stun, sleep, cold immunities.

[haplok]

Originally posted by Sohamkar:

Anyone have tried Kinetic Knight. I have tried multiple times to squeeze something out of that archetype. Never succeeded. In the mid game it fell grandly.

It's not as brokenly OP as a normal Kineticist with Deadly Earth. But its a great party asset.
Early on using an Energy Kinetic Blade (generally Fire or Electric) is pretty great, as it provides great accuracy for your attacks.

If you pick Electric, you'll also have early access to Celerity, which is basically Haste. And as you generally have nothing else to spend your Burn on, it's the best way to keep your party nearly perma-hasted very early - and keeping the spell slots of your other casters for other purposes.

If you pick Fire, you can have Dazzling Display AND Dreadful Carnage super-early, which is great to apply aoe Shaken (and open up for Shatter Defenses).
Also Fire combines well with Earth.
KKnights suck at Composite Infusions (due to Burn cost for each swing and inability to Gather Power and Full Attack in the same round) EXCEPT, whether by a bug or a feature, their Blade Whirlwind ability ALWAYS costs 0 Burn, even Composite and Substance Infused.
Double Fire-Blue Flame Whirlwind would be super accurate. But I think Magma - Fire + Earth Whirlwind takes the crown, as it allows you to add Bowling Infusion to make your Whirlwinds also aoe Trip enemies. Pick Wild Talents and feats that support tripping - Trip, Greater Trip, Fury's Fall, get those Overflow bonuses to Dex and Con rolling (for example amass Burn by charging your energy shields) and go to town!

It's also party friendly and a Standard action (can be used after movement), so it rules supreme with the Turn Based mod. It's actually one of my favorite classes in that mode.
Then you can do some fun stuff:
https://i.imgur.com/euB97hY.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KsEgrkg.jpg

[jsaving]

Originally posted by haplok:

Crippling Strike is sub-par? Since when? Also once you unlock Vivi Advanced Talents, you can pick Bard (like Archeologist for Uncanny Dodge and Mirror Image and maybe Dragon Disciple access - extra Bite) or Rogue (for UD + Debilitation) levels and pick stuff like Opportunist and Double Debilitation on their even levels.

Completely agree on crippling strike, was making the point that the viv's selection of advanced talents is inferior to rogue/slayer (due to the lack of some OP options like opportunitst) but yes crippling strike is super-strong. Also agree that vivs can be a solid parts of an archaeologist/DD build or a solid dip for rogues, was only saying the one-level dips so many people take for mutagen/SA generally aren't worthwhile.