Sensei monk question

[wulfster42]

I'm doing my first harder difficulty run soon and I'm putting a band together. Got a pure vivi + A ranger freeboter already, next up is the monk.

I don't want a bard (I love them in DnD but just doesn't seem great in this game), and want to go with Sensei monk instead (just seems far better over all).

Thing I'm curious about is the ability to give monk abilities to all companions at level 14....it includes evasion in there. Does this also give the sensei monk evasion as well since he doesn't actually get it himself?

That seems (to me) to be the biggest loss (and honestly worth it) for going Sensei over traditional (although it looks like you lose most of the bonus feats as well..which is hard since my monk is an Asimar (dex + wis). Sensei gets wis to AB though, which is pretty rad. Should get a seriously high starting AC on him.

Think it's worth going Sensei even if I can't give my monk evasion (only lasts for aminute but you get a ton of ki long term as a pure monk (especially as Sensei as I'll be boosting wis the most by far). Should have over 20 ki points by the end....enough to give everyone evasion 10 times at least (and doubt it'll be needed that much).

Anyway, any sensei experts (or monk experts) out there? Am I missing something that I'm loosing etc by going Sensie?

That is my 3rd primary melee character, and I need to hit spells with 2 of the last slots and I want one ranged (Bow using) gunslinger for the 6th (no pets....running with 6 is already going to be hard.

[wulfster42]

I'm playing without pets, 6 is the max I can run with and even that is pushing it. I could go with 2 monk builds though, one normal/pummel (already made) and one sensei.

I already have a freebooter ranger for those bonuses, but I'm not running with a bard at all, so sensei would be nice (thought it was moral bonuses...so it wouldn't stack with bard?).

How do you get the additional attack at 11 without flurry of blows though? If i'm only down 1 attack that isn't too bad, and it would give me a chance to finally go crane form.

Loosing 2 attacks though seems like alot, even if it does give the whole party more damage and skill boosts (heroism is same moral bonus to skill bonuses though right? so it's not really that big of a diff).

I have a pure vivi + sorc combo (sorc/eldritch knight/monk 2/pally 2) + current monk (ended up going traditional, but did mess up with 13 int (gives 1 bonus skill point though which is nice since it's Asimar) + ranger freebooter.

Was working on making my tactician next, want him melee anyway so he can share important tactical feats with everyone. I could go sensei monk 2 (for wis to hit) on him, giving me 2 bonus feats, wis to AC and wis to hit along with evasion. Don't have to be a pure tactician leader I guess.

It isn't TOO bad if I have to remake my monk actually since I'm just creating em at level 1 for now, and have not played with any of em (it's basically free to create them at 1).

IF I can still get the bonus attack at 11......I think I will switch my monk to a sensei (still probably do 2 sensei levels with my tactician though). It may be the only source for cleric spells though as I really want to do a focused ranged character with my last slot. Might go with a Vivi hybrid for the fucused ranged build (possibly 2 eldritch archer + 8 vivi + 10 arcane trickster (should get sneak attack damage on the spells AND the normal attacks).

May have my lineup mostly figured out at this point....just need to determine if Sensei is worth it over traditional. Do like the wis to hit...that rocks, and having another way to boost everyones AB and damage is awesome.

I think I like the inq + 2 monk setup as well, I'll still get heal (just not as many). The party is going to be pretty light on cleric spells/healing though, just the inq and he will be down 2 levels.

That is why I was thinking of a second Inq in the background (Also tactician leader (both can then give a tactician feat to other party members on top of adding them all to them within 30 feat etc). The background tacician would be bow focused for damage but also able to heal (and 2 of em able to cast mass cure wounds or heal spells would help alot.

Way less damage then the vivi/arcane archer combo....but more defensive.

[dwarner]

The key thing about an offensive monk using Pummeling Style is Pummeling Charge (the equivalent of the Pounce skill that Barbs and some animals get) which gives you a full attack on a Charge. If you watch your combat log during a regular fight you'll notice that your ranged characters are getting a lot more attacks. This is because they don't have to move. Any turn with a move for a normal melee character is a turn without a full attack.

Monks with Pummeling Charge are different. They get a full attack built in to their move (if you use Charge), so they'll fill up the combat log like a ranged character. Monks using Pummeling Charge (including Sensei) will thus do more damage than you'd think.

[wulfster42]

Ahh sweet, you have convinced me, the mass skills including the sensei being the last straw...I'm gonna redo my monk as Sensie (actually 3rd time redoing it now and the other two have to freaking just sti there cause I can't delete characters.

Also man, I sure wish I didn't have to download a mod thing to get more freaking portraits, yours are way better and I'm SO tired of the same freaking ones all the time.

[Pink Eye]

Try Sensei out, you get infinite respecs/infinite mercs in this game after all. I tried it out myself and the early game felt like a slog.

[wulfster42]

Wait...you do need to actually be in pummeling stance to get the advantage of pummeling charge right? The other bonuses from pummeling stance are still great, but it's the charge bonus I really wanted.

[dwarner]

Originally posted by wulfster42:

Wait...you do need to actually be in pummeling stance to get the advantage of pummeling charge right? The other bonuses from pummeling stance are still great, but it's the charge bonus I really wanted.

Yes, you keep the style on all the time. You don't need to install the mod. Just download and pick out the ones you want.

[dwarner]

Originally posted by Pink Eye:

Try Sensei out, you get infinite respecs/infinite mercs in this game after all. I tried it out myself and the early game felt like a slog.

If your early game feels like a slog, go down to the Tranquil River Bend at lvl 3 and loot the two bodies there for some Flaming Nunchuks. Replace those with the Blinding Kama the artisan gives you, then replace with fists to taste. I like weapons so I don't play monks.

Once you get Leg Sweep and Greater Trip I'd imagine you'll feel a lot more powerful.

[wulfster42]

Made her, and yeah, ac is gonna be insane.

REalized you get the -2 penalty for fighting defensively even when not in crane, so took that (and will use crane till I get pummeling anyway for even 1 more AC).

Defensively now gives 4 ac for -2 to hit penalty. Also grabbed combat expertese but not gonna use that right at first as the AC is already really high (23 and 27 with mage armor).

Decided not to bother focusing on damage with power attack etc, since she won't get as many attacks, and focus on defense/ac and tripping instead. Only worried about being flanked and losing dodge AC bonuses etc...might even have to multi later to get uncanny dodge.

Damage is paltry, even with bulls strength I'm not gonna hit hard, and I don't get the flurry bonus attack. Least monks now get full BAB so 2 atttacks at 5, and eventually 3 with haste...so not horrid. No reason not to use a monk weapon either (I have always sold those nunchucks, be nice to finally use them!).

No evasion initially does mean she will be more vunlerable to spells especially AoE ones, but...long term she can give the whole party evasion which is pretty freaking sweet (or spell resist..which is even sweeter really).

So happy I switched her to a Sensei, I was focusing on damage too much, and this will still rock with pummeling. 1 or 2 less attacks per round...hurts, but I'll still have the same chance to trip (or chances) and Aoo's.....so not a huge deal.

Now to make my inquisitor hehe:)

[wulfster42]

Btw, I did want to check (for future inquisitor build) to see if the sensei wis as attack would work with range weapons. It does not, it still uses dex for ranged weapons.

Not bad ifI make my Inquisitor melee (probably going to at this point)...but makes a ranged inquisitor pointless to take sensei monk.

[haplok]

Being Flanked does not cause one to loose dodge bonuses.

[dwarner]

Originally posted by wulfster42:

Made her, and yeah, ac is gonna be insane.

REalized you get the -2 penalty for fighting defensively even when not in crane, so took that (and will use crane till I get pummeling anyway for even 1 more AC).

Defensively now gives 4 ac for -2 to hit penalty. Also grabbed combat expertese but not gonna use that right at first as the AC is already really high (23 and 27 with mage armor).

Decided not to bother focusing on damage with power attack etc, since she won't get as many attacks, and focus on defense/ac and tripping instead. Only worried about being flanked and losing dodge AC bonuses etc...might even have to multi later to get uncanny dodge.

Damage is paltry, even with bulls strength I'm not gonna hit hard, and I don't get the flurry bonus attack. Least monks now get full BAB so 2 atttacks at 5, and eventually 3 with haste...so not horrid. No reason not to use a monk weapon either (I have always sold those nunchucks, be nice to finally use them!).

No evasion initially does mean she will be more vunlerable to spells especially AoE ones, but...long term she can give the whole party evasion which is pretty freaking sweet (or spell resist..which is even sweeter really).

So happy I switched her to a Sensei, I was focusing on damage too much, and this will still rock with pummeling. 1 or 2 less attacks per round...hurts, but I'll still have the same chance to trip (or chances) and Aoo's.....so not a huge deal.

Now to make my inquisitor hehe:)

When you build it again you’ll focus on things like Shatter Defenses, Improved Initiative, Blindfight, and Deflect Arrows.

You don’t need Crane and Combat Expertise is hurting your CMB.

Focus.

You’re a back row assassin, not a tank.

You can play it as a tank - Bruiser in the Varnhold DLC can give you a taste of that, but with full BAB and WIS to hit you’ll have among the highest CMB in the game, so better to leverage that.

[jsaving]

Originally posted by wulfster42:

I'm doing my first harder difficulty run soon and I'm putting a band together. Got a pure vivi + A ranger freeboter already, next up is the monk.

I don't want a bard (I love them in DnD but just doesn't seem great in this game), and want to go with Sensei monk instead (just seems far better over all).

There is nothing wrong with sensei monks and this thread has offered great advice on how to use them to their fullest potential. However I would question the premise that bards are not great especially when the difficulty level is ramped up. In my experience bards are among the strongest classes in the game and become more rather than less useful on harder difficulty levels. Their personal melee DPS isn't especially high, for sure, but the bonuses they provide to the rest of the party and secondarily the status effects they can inflict on enemies add more than you might think to a party's prospects.

[wulfster42]

Y.ah, not trying to disparage bards, some of my favorite real life DnD chars have been bards (especially my goblin bard). Just was trying to get the same bonuses as a monk (or many of them, the bard song bonuses basically) in monk form:)

[dwarner]

Originally posted by jsaving:

Originally posted by wulfster42:

I'm doing my first harder difficulty run soon and I'm putting a band together. Got a pure vivi + A ranger freeboter already, next up is the monk.

I don't want a bard (I love them in DnD but just doesn't seem great in this game), and want to go with Sensei monk instead (just seems far better over all).

There is nothing wrong with sensei monks and this thread has offered great advice on how to use them to their fullest potential. However I would question the premise that bards are not great especially when the difficulty level is ramped up. In my experience bards are among the strongest classes in the game and become more rather than less useful on harder difficulty levels. Their personal melee DPS isn't especially high, for sure, but the bonuses they provide to the rest of the party and secondarily the status effects they can inflict on enemies add more than you might think to a party's prospects.

Bards are best class in game, not close. There is a certain plot twist whose purpose is undoubtedly at least in part to drive that fact home.

[dwarner]

Originally posted by wulfster42:

Y.ah, not trying to disparage bards, some of my favorite real life DnD chars have been bards (especially my goblin bard). Just was trying to get the same bonuses as a monk (or many of them, the bard song bonuses basically) in monk form:)

Totally different things. Sensei can supplement a high level Bard who wants to sing Heroics, or fill some of the gap if you want to go without a Bard to increase the difficulty level, but isn’t close to replacing one.

Closer to replacing Alchemist. Also does some unique things no class can do.