Thinker's post, just bad

[Tegga21]

Takes up 5 spots for no gain. I'm not sure how you balance this but right now its just really bad for no gain...

Maybe it generates 2 science base with -.5 per adjacent building. Even double science would still make me just want to reroll when I get them I think. So the tiers would be 4/8/12? I'm not sure, its not a fun condition for a building to take up so much 5 spots, even if it required 2 empty spots it wouldn't feel right.

[Senlin]

I agree it's harsh, but then I also think it's fine, it's a bit of a challenge and limits where you can position them. And if you position them well, they don't really block all 4 tiles, because those can still contain forests, mountains or wild animals.

[b...]

And placing them in pairs, or set since you want 4+ at higher difficulties, only uses 3 spots.
That said studies are superior in every way, but so are fans>ponds and fireplaces>torches.
Adds fun dynamic to early game

[Catman]

I'm reading all these discussions, and taking notes for future balancing. I like things being different, but I'd like each building to be at least situationally better than their alternatives in specific circumstances (lots of things can affect that!)

[DsnowMan]

It's arguably a downside that the lvl3 study requires two people to operate, but the studies should probably get nerfed harder (like.. needing to be adjacent to a house per level? - that is, the lvl 2 study needs two houses, lvl 3 needs 3?)

With all of the different techs.. maybe you give them difficulty ratings, and you try to make sure each run gets some good ones and some bad ones?

[adozu]

I'd rather see the thinker's post have something else a little more distinctive at max tier, like a +1 nature for example (they are contemplating a tree all day aren't they?)

The totemic temple arguably feels even worse, not only you need empty space, but it has to be filled with critters.

[Catman]

My ideas for rebalancing go towards adding more differences to make up for the shortcomings, as this creates variety and makes different runs more interesting, so yes, adding some additional resource would be cool!

[Snow]

I agree that I find the Thinkers post harder to use with no payoff for the increased difficulty though I think the totems are fine. Its incredibly common to get spots where you can border 2 animals and that is all you need for it to be equal efficiently to the other paths. If you can get a few spots with 3 or 4 its good enough you may not even need to convert to high end science buildings needing the paper tree.

[Tystefy]

I never had any issues with the Thinker's Post. You just have to place them far away in secluded, forested corners.

Placing them in your starting border area is a mistake. Just expand to those ideal spots. Should only take a few turns.

[Manxome]

I don't believe Thinker's Post is terrible, but it seems clearly worse than Study.

Even if you stick them in corners to mitigate their adjacency issues, they're still taking up more space than studies, and space has value. (I consider the fact that studies double-up at tier 3 to be an advantage, not a disadvantage.)

And delaying a couple turns to expand your borders before you build them is not a trivial cost in an exponential-growth game. Losing N turns is losing N turns, no matter when you lose them. (In fact, it seems plausibly better to build some immediately at your starting location, then later on build new ones in better positions and demolish the original ones, than to delay your early research like that.)

I strongly disagree with the OP's assessment that those are bad enough to outweigh doubling your science output; if Thinking Posts gave twice as much knowledge as Studies then I'd consider them drastically better than Studies. Nonetheless, these seem like clear noticeable disadvantages.

All that said, I consider Scriptorium to be a bigger balance issue than Thinking Post vs Study. Level 3 study or post gives 6 knowledge for 2 actions. The more-advanced Scriptorium requires an extra research (which is a dead-end that doesn't lead to anything) and a complex production chain with tight placement rules and different training required at each of 3 steps, and if you get the absolute maximum possible bonus at every step of that chain, you can produce 6 knowledge for...1 and 8/9 actions, on average (a ~6% improvement). I bet for most players that doesn't even pay for its own start-up costs before it gets obsoleted by Schools.

[Senlin]

I finally got study in my last run, and I will say this - the problem isn't Thinker's Post. The problem is Study. It's way OP, at least compared to thinker's post and the druid one. It should have something negative to it, some harsher requirement. At the very least the top version should give bonus for every dwelling around it (+1 for each, with base production of 2, for 2 people), forcing you to set up the houses in this way.

As for the strategy with thinker's post - waiting a few turns is IMHO bad decision. It's better to put one as soon as possible and then later move it when needed, when you have more pips and the time spent on moving is not as valuable as in the first turns.

[BUZZBLITZ]

They are both good, Shared study is not better. They both have the same knowledge per pip efficiency. Shared study is just more space efficient but you require 2 pip. On challenge difficulty, you sometimes want an odd number of pip on research and thinker post is better in those situations. Space efficiency is only important mid to late game and you should work toward school by that time. The real problem is that scriptorium is trash so the transition from tier 3 knowledge to tier 5 is hard but it was acknowledge on the discord balance forum and it will get balance eventually.

[Manxome]

If your perspective is that the placement requirements of Thinking Post are not a disadvantage because they are trivial to meet, then what purpose is served by having those placement requirements at all?

[Iversithy]

IMO there isn't even a discussion around this currently. Study is a thousand times better.
As of right now I reset every run I start with Thinking Post. It's just not worth it.

The problem isn't how many Thinker you can assign to it, the problem is the Limitation with "Nothing next to it" + the wood cost.
Every Thinker's Post blocks basically 4 additional slots. You will build 2 at least anyway that means 8 Slots are gone right of the bat.
With the study you can simply build 2 next to any house, upgrade them to Lvl 3 and have 12 Science per round with basically no drawback.

If you want to do the same with Thinker's Post you would Limit your Area by 16 slots.
Sure you can place them in some corner where 3 of the adjacent fields are walls/forest but there are other buildings that benefit from these spots so it's not worth it to do so most of the time.

On top of that the Retreat increases the chance for Thunder Events.

Since it's super easy to rush 4 Thinker and have 2 Shared Studies you can output an insane amount of research before getting into the 2nd/3rd season.
It's not a problem at all to research everything in the first 3-4 rows until the first winter arrives. Which is significantly more difficult with Retreats. Alone for the fact that they cost nearly double as much Wood for the same output. (15 Wood for 3 Knowledge vs. 9 Wood for 3 Knowledge)

So a side by side comparison:

Thinker's Post: (2 Wood)
1 Knowledge per Action/Round
Blocks 4 surrounding Fields

Study: (2 Wood)
1 Knowledge per Action/Round
Needs 1 Dwelling nearby

Retreat: (7 Wood)
2 Knowledge per Action/Round
Blocks 4 surrounding Fields
Attracts Thunder Events (+10% Chance)

Large Study: (7 Wood)
2 Knowledge per Action/Round
Needs 1 Dwelling nearby

Secluded Retreat: (15 Wood)
3 Knowledge per Action/Round
Blocks 4 surrounding Fields
Attracts Thunder Events (+10% Chance)

Large Study: (18 Wood)
6 Knowledge per Action/Round
Needs 1 Dwelling nearby
Requires 2 Thinker

IMO one way to buff the Retreats would be to either give it a bonus based on it's surroundings or massively reduce the Wood required for it. 15 Wood for 3 Knoweldge per turn vs. 18 Wood for 6 knowledge per turn is just not justifiable in the early game.
Maybe my opinion changes with more unlocks in the game, we'll see

[Manxome]

It does seem like the construction cost of 2x tier 3 post ought to be ~equal or less to 1x tier 3 study, since the double study is doing the job of two posts. (And that's total cost including both wood and construction time.)

[Catman]

I'm looking at this, thank you for the feedback. Balance is a huge beast and while I am happy with the overall balance, I want to do some tweaks here and there on some buildings that feel too far off. We have a discussion going on this specific topic on the Discord server too!

I want to be very careful with this however, as it has a lot of ramifications, and I also do not want everything to feel samey!