CHANGE MY MIND: Sonic Forces is overhated

[Spinony]

yes

[mdesaleah]

The series nearly died with Forces.

Thats not even an exaggeration, as Frontiers was their last chance to really prove they even could make a big game or else SEGA would put the series down and we wouldnt be getting main games anymore.

So even if you like Forces, it being so mediocre and getting bashed for it was a good thing. As it lead to Frontiers, Shadow Generations, and an actual interest in making the series improve and move forward.

Its a game that has aged even worse now then on release since we now know what it could have been. But thats a very very good thing.

Also the movie 1 was the first step in showing that people are interested in the series when effort is placed. Which was used to inspire Frontiers. And then we know how that success has grown since

[LilSoonerFanInMO]

mdesaleah původně napsal:

The series nearly died with Forces.

Thats not even an exaggeration, as Frontiers was their last chance to really prove they even could make a big game or else SEGA would put the series down and we wouldnt be getting main games anymore.

So even if you like Forces, it being so mediocre and getting bashed for it was a good thing. As it lead to Frontiers, Shadow Generations, and an actual interest in making the series improve and move forward.

Its a game that has aged even worse now then on release since we now know what it could have been. But thats a very very good thing.

Also the movie 1 was the first step in showing that people are interested in the series when effort is placed. Which was used to inspire Frontiers. And then we know how that success has grown since

Even if all of that were true, I don't think even you can deny people will treat Forces like it kicked their puppies to death....

[EF_Neo1st]

LilSoonerFanInMO původně napsal:

mdesaleah původně napsal:

The series nearly died with Forces.

Thats not even an exaggeration, as Frontiers was their last chance to really prove they even could make a big game or else SEGA would put the series down and we wouldnt be getting main games anymore.

So even if you like Forces, it being so mediocre and getting bashed for it was a good thing. As it lead to Frontiers, Shadow Generations, and an actual interest in making the series improve and move forward.

Its a game that has aged even worse now then on release since we now know what it could have been. But thats a very very good thing.

Also the movie 1 was the first step in showing that people are interested in the series when effort is placed. Which was used to inspire Frontiers. And then we know how that success has grown since

Even if all of that were true, I don't think even you can deny people will treat Forces like it kicked their puppies to death....

I certainly will not, game is good, could be longer but is good ... not "goood" among one of the best titles but it is waaaaay far form being nearly as bad as you people make it look like.

[mdesaleah]

LilSoonerFanInMO původně napsal:

mdesaleah původně napsal:

The series nearly died with Forces.

Thats not even an exaggeration, as Frontiers was their last chance to really prove they even could make a big game or else SEGA would put the series down and we wouldnt be getting main games anymore.

So even if you like Forces, it being so mediocre and getting bashed for it was a good thing. As it lead to Frontiers, Shadow Generations, and an actual interest in making the series improve and move forward.

Its a game that has aged even worse now then on release since we now know what it could have been. But thats a very very good thing.

Also the movie 1 was the first step in showing that people are interested in the series when effort is placed. Which was used to inspire Frontiers. And then we know how that success has grown since

Even if all of that were true, I don't think even you can deny people will treat Forces like it kicked their puppies to death....

I mean. If someone paid full price for this then valid.

The game is incredibly mediocre. And it nearly killing the series was a pretty big negative.

If Frontiers didn't happen and showed that they actually care again, Forces reception would be even worse now.

Especially with Sunset Heights in Shadow Generations showing what Forces could have been with budget/time/more effort.

[EF_Neo1st]

mdesaleah původně napsal:

LilSoonerFanInMO původně napsal:

Even if all of that were true, I don't think even you can deny people will treat Forces like it kicked their puppies to death....

I mean. If someone paid full price for this then valid.

The game is incredibly mediocre. And it nearly killing the series was a pretty big negative.

If Frontiers didn't happen and showed that they actually care again, Forces reception would be even worse now.

Especially with Sunset Heights in Shadow Generations showing what Forces could have been with budget/time/more effort.

I honestly dont see how this game would be "killing the franchise", it is way far from being anywhere near that bad to do it.
Its only downside is that it feels short.

[mdesaleah]

EF_Neo1st původně napsal:

mdesaleah původně napsal:

I mean. If someone paid full price for this then valid.

The game is incredibly mediocre. And it nearly killing the series was a pretty big negative.

If Frontiers didn't happen and showed that they actually care again, Forces reception would be even worse now.

Especially with Sunset Heights in Shadow Generations showing what Forces could have been with budget/time/more effort.

I honestly dont see how this game would be "killing the franchise", it is way far from being anywhere near that bad to do it.
Its only downside is that it feels short.

Doesn't have to be "bad" outright (like a glitchy mess), to be enough to kill a franchise.

Something so mediocre and forgettable can also do the job too. A big 6/10 being generous.

The level design is "just there", the story is bad (but ignoring that here), the controls are poor for any other game in the series but is "ok" for the bland level design here.

Its a game someone can play, think is ok, wonder why its clearly unfinished with no Infinite final fight and then forget most of it a few weeks later. The stages all blend together too much, and is the closest to actually being "boost to win".

(and we know Frontiers was their last big shot. Not just for a lot of fans who were practically just done with the series if another Forces happened, but for new Sonic Team too)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apwvUCCvkVo

vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpZykPGHkDQ

[EF_Neo1st]

mdesaleah původně napsal:

EF_Neo1st původně napsal:

I honestly dont see how this game would be "killing the franchise", it is way far from being anywhere near that bad to do it.
Its only downside is that it feels short.

Doesn't have to be "bad" outright (like a glitchy mess), to be enough to kill a franchise.

Something so mediocre and forgettable can also do the job too. A big 6/10 being generous.

The level design is "just there", the story is messy, the controls are poor for any other game in the series but is "ok" for the bland level design here.

Its a game someone can play, think is ok, wonder why its clearly unfinished with no Infinite final fight and then forget most of it a few weeks later. The stages all blend together too much, and is the closest to actually being "boost to win".

(and we know Frontiers was their last big shot. Not just for a lot of fans who were practically just done with the series if another Forces happened, but for new Sonic Team too)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apwvUCCvkVo

vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpZykPGHkDQ

I watched Frontiers trailers and honestly that would be a franchise killer to me.
I dont exactly enjoy the Generations/Forces gameplay of "push forward and go" (as rarely there is something to really make you stop or do platforming that is not on rails or not on QTEs) but I find it fine for what it is, what I wanted for 3D Sonic game was something more like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1CEN5gVs5Q
but with enemies and more stuff, something where the player would control direction, camera and movement without magnetic corrrections for jumps and without ledge protections or stuff blocking the passage just because the player is not supposed to be there, an open world (or an open area for each level), but Frontiers made it "meh-ish soulless poor attempt" imho, Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 did better.
What SEGA been delivering is hotwheels-like gameplay (stay on rails, watch it play by itself, press something when QTE show up, keep going,I dont really like it but I take it for what it is, it is not just QTEs too but is the worst Sonic lvl design imo, the Sonic 2 special stages were fun because it was a tube but not so on rails and no QTEs, also were not all that long either).

I also never liked the "almost infinite fights" like having to keep running waiting for Metal Sonic to finally decide to give a go at attacking me to sometimes even not be able to land the hit because of doodging other projectiles already the moment Metal decides to give it a go making the fight far longer than necessary (therefore boring to me). I prefer the Sonic 1, 2 and 3 bossfights in that regard, Sonic 2, 1 and 3 being my favorite in that order.

About story I never really cared about much.

[mdesaleah]

^Frontiers pretty much is what you want. Minus rolling, which isn't the focus on the game. But you can unlock a spindash towards the end that you can carry over.

I'd take a Frontiers over a "Sonic Utopia" tech demo any day though, but thats also unfair. One is a full game and the other is more a proof of concept. If they want to make momentum more of a thing, just take the Frontiers Spindash and tone it down a bit (cause its actually extremely effective, which works for when you're meant to unlock it, but wouldnt work for an entire game).

Frontiers was a risk, but one that was much more skeptical because of Forces being so mediocre before it. No one was really expecting Frontiers to actually try at all. Its biggest downside being the side challenge stages, but Shadow Generations shows that they can do the best boost levels the series ever had now).

[LilSoonerFanInMO]

EF_Neo1st původně napsal:

mdesaleah původně napsal:

Doesn't have to be "bad" outright (like a glitchy mess), to be enough to kill a franchise.

Something so mediocre and forgettable can also do the job too. A big 6/10 being generous.

The level design is "just there", the story is messy, the controls are poor for any other game in the series but is "ok" for the bland level design here.

Its a game someone can play, think is ok, wonder why its clearly unfinished with no Infinite final fight and then forget most of it a few weeks later. The stages all blend together too much, and is the closest to actually being "boost to win".

(and we know Frontiers was their last big shot. Not just for a lot of fans who were practically just done with the series if another Forces happened, but for new Sonic Team too)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apwvUCCvkVo

vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpZykPGHkDQ

I watched Frontiers trailers and honestly that would be a franchise killer to me.
I dont exactly enjoy the Generations/Forces gameplay of "push forward and go" (as rarely there is something to really make you stop or do platforming that is not on rails or not on QTEs) but I find it fine for what it is, what I wanted for 3D Sonic game was something more like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1CEN5gVs5Q
but with enemies and more stuff, something where the player would control direction, camera and movement without magnetic corrrections for jumps and without ledge protections or stuff blocking the passage just because the player is not supposed to be there, an open world (or an open area for each level), but Frontiers made it "meh-ish soulless poor attempt" imho, Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 did better.
What SEGA been delivering is hotwheels-like gameplay (stay on rails, watch it play by itself, press something when QTE show up, keep going,I dont really like it but I take it for what it is, it is not just QTEs too but is the worst Sonic lvl design imo, the Sonic 2 special stages were fun because it was a tube but not so on rails and no QTEs, also were not all that long either).

I also never liked the "almost infinite fights" like having to keep running waiting for Metal Sonic to finally decide to give a go at attacking me to sometimes even not be able to land the hit because of doodging other projectiles already the moment Metal decides to give it a go making the fight far longer than necessary (therefore boring to me). I prefer the Sonic 1, 2 and 3 bossfights in that regard, Sonic 2, 1 and 3 being my favorite in that order.

About story I never really cared about much.

The boost style is very sensitive to this, you are right about that much, because in the wrong hands, you can have something like a "autoplay" kinda game. This is why having good level design (IE Sonic Generations and to a slightly lesser degree Unleashed) is important. Colors feels way too reliant on platforming and Forces feels like a over-correction of that, leaning WAY too much into the boost.

[mdesaleah]

LilSoonerFanInMO původně napsal:

EF_Neo1st původně napsal:

I watched Frontiers trailers and honestly that would be a franchise killer to me.
I dont exactly enjoy the Generations/Forces gameplay of "push forward and go" (as rarely there is something to really make you stop or do platforming that is not on rails or not on QTEs) but I find it fine for what it is, what I wanted for 3D Sonic game was something more like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1CEN5gVs5Q
but with enemies and more stuff, something where the player would control direction, camera and movement without magnetic corrrections for jumps and without ledge protections or stuff blocking the passage just because the player is not supposed to be there, an open world (or an open area for each level), but Frontiers made it "meh-ish soulless poor attempt" imho, Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 did better.
What SEGA been delivering is hotwheels-like gameplay (stay on rails, watch it play by itself, press something when QTE show up, keep going,I dont really like it but I take it for what it is, it is not just QTEs too but is the worst Sonic lvl design imo, the Sonic 2 special stages were fun because it was a tube but not so on rails and no QTEs, also were not all that long either).

I also never liked the "almost infinite fights" like having to keep running waiting for Metal Sonic to finally decide to give a go at attacking me to sometimes even not be able to land the hit because of doodging other projectiles already the moment Metal decides to give it a go making the fight far longer than necessary (therefore boring to me). I prefer the Sonic 1, 2 and 3 bossfights in that regard, Sonic 2, 1 and 3 being my favorite in that order.

About story I never really cared about much.

The boost style is very sensitive to this, you are right about that much, because in the wrong hands, you can have something like a "autoplay" kinda game. This is why having good level design (IE Sonic Generations and to a slightly lesser degree Unleashed) is important. Colors feels way too reliant on platforming and Forces feels like a over-correction of that, leaning WAY too much into the boost.

Agree there.

There are actually 2 kinds of boost games. Colors/Forces straightforward, more 2D, blocky platforming. Or Unleashed/Generations/Shadow Gens faster, less 2D, more exploration/paths.

Frontiers I think would be classified in both since it really depends on the stage, and their intention is more to be a side activity anyways (so they aren't the focus of the game). Some can be blockier and slower paced, while others lean much more into Sonic Generations (but more gimmicks).

The true focus of that game hasn't yet been copied. Its a new Unleashed in terms of being a start.

[LilSoonerFanInMO]

mdesaleah původně napsal:

LilSoonerFanInMO původně napsal:

The boost style is very sensitive to this, you are right about that much, because in the wrong hands, you can have something like a "autoplay" kinda game. This is why having good level design (IE Sonic Generations and to a slightly lesser degree Unleashed) is important. Colors feels way too reliant on platforming and Forces feels like a over-correction of that, leaning WAY too much into the boost.

Agree there.

There are actually 2 kinds of boost games. Colors/Forces straightforward, more 2D, blocky platforming. Or Unleashed/Generations/Shadow Gens faster, less 2D, more exploration/paths.

Frontiers I think would be classified in both since it really depends on the stage, and their intention is more to be a side activity anyways (so they aren't the focus of the game). Some can be blockier and slower paced, while others lean much more into Sonic Generations (but more gimmicks).

The true focus of that game hasn't yet been copied. Its a new Unleashed in terms of being a start.

Which is all the more baffling when you have so many people trying to say Shadow Gens is a Frontiers sequel, when that just isn't true regardless of what lens you look at the games through

[mdesaleah]

LilSoonerFanInMO původně napsal:

mdesaleah původně napsal:

Agree there.

There are actually 2 kinds of boost games. Colors/Forces straightforward, more 2D, blocky platforming. Or Unleashed/Generations/Shadow Gens faster, less 2D, more exploration/paths.

Frontiers I think would be classified in both since it really depends on the stage, and their intention is more to be a side activity anyways (so they aren't the focus of the game). Some can be blockier and slower paced, while others lean much more into Sonic Generations (but more gimmicks).

The true focus of that game hasn't yet been copied. Its a new Unleashed in terms of being a start.

Which is all the more baffling when you have so many people trying to say Shadow Gens is a Frontiers sequel, when that just isn't true regardless of what lens you look at the games through

Its half in half.

Shadow Generations is both a Frontiers sequel, and a Generations sequel.

Frontiers cause it continues to adapt the hub exploring, and better controls for a boost game, collectibles, and platforming in a hub.

But a Generations sequel for its stages pushing even farther than those did in terms of alternate paths.

It does also literally run on Frontiers engine. They are going to be developing this more going forward. So the next main game will play like Frontiers, but will most likely feel like handling Shadow Generations.

(or if you want it simplified. Shadow Generations is Frontiers, if the focus was flipped from hub to stages)

[EF_Neo1st]

mdesaleah původně napsal:

^Frontiers pretty much is what you want. Minus rolling, which isn't the focus on the game. But you can unlock a spindash towards the end that you can carry over.

I'd take a Frontiers over a "Sonic Utopia" tech demo any day though, but thats also unfair. One is a full game and the other is more a proof of concept. If they want to make momentum more of a thing, just take the Frontiers Spindash and tone it down a bit (cause its actually extremely effective, which works for when you're meant to unlock it, but wouldnt work for an entire game).

Frontiers was a risk, but one that was much more skeptical because of Forces being so mediocre before it. No one was really expecting Frontiers to actually try at all. Its biggest downside being the side challenge stages, but Shadow Generations shows that they can do the best boost levels the series ever had now).

What I saw of Frontiers was nowhere near what I would want from a 3D Sonic (free camera, free movement and open), how they made the "levels" within the open world I just did not go along and I doubt Frontiers will be anywhere close to the price I would pay to test it (not any time soon).

LilSoonerFanInMO původně napsal:

EF_Neo1st původně napsal:

...

The boost style is very sensitive to this, you are right about that much, because in the wrong hands, you can have something like a "autoplay" kinda game. This is why having good level design (IE Sonic Generations and to a slightly lesser degree Unleashed) is important. Colors feels way too reliant on platforming and Forces feels like a over-correction of that, leaning WAY too much into the boost.

It is not only aboutt the "boost style" it is about the "Just move forward or select a path here and there" in a way that feels like most of the level is just a background and I just have to memorize some stuff along the way.

I am used (and used to like) the first 3 Sonic games where if I dont know the level I have to watch out, look out for stuff, take care, explore, etc, I dont like this idea of "just move forward without knowing the level, it is safe" kind of gameplay and Generations is also sort of like that too but it have good "old-school" levels too that I do like (and so does Forces too, tho "short" levels and the problem I see of Forces is literally "short" all along).

[mdesaleah]

^You probably should try it then since you haven't played it and are basing it after a trailer.

Cause yeah, it does have free camera, free movement, and is open (for what are multiple islands).

Room for improvement still, but "not being open" isn't really a complaint. Complaints would be more specific (like implementing Shadow Generations modifications to controls for cyber stages, or adding more to the enemies to make the combat more threatening).

But being able to collect practically every collectible by doing multiple things does make it open. And if you're good at boosting at angles and using the spindash, it turns into SA1 skips. You can do platforming sections normally, or you can be creative and flat out skip them with some testing.

[EF_Neo1st]

mdesaleah původně napsal:

^You probably should try it then since you haven't played it and are basing it after a trailer.

Cause yeah, it does have free camera, free movement, and is open (for what are multiple islands).

Room for improvement still, but "not being open" isn't really a complaint. Complaints would be more specific (like implementing Shadow Generations modifications to controls for cyber stages, or adding more to the enemies to make the combat more threatening).

But being able to collect practically every collectible by doing multiple things does make it open. And if you're good at boosting at angles and using the spindash, it turns into SA1 skips. You can do platforming sections normally, or you can be creative and flat out skip them with some testing.

I watched "gameplay" actually, not trailer.
I dont know, the "design of the levels" within the open world and the bossfights, two things that threw me off and I expected something different.