Is gunnery and piloting mastery enough?

[avadream]

I've all my mechs on those 2 masteries.

I can imagine that tactics (or even guts ?) could become crucial for some missions or for endgame/sandbox in general. Is this true ?

[Strayed]

Generally you'll find Tactician and Bulwark of great use for Brawlers and IDFS mechs. Useful for medium mechs to hit light mechs and ambushing heavy mechs

DFS breaching shot and bulwark - you'll want your sniper to essentially hit things with a big gun ie the AC20

Strikers (flankers/cavalry) - Ace Pilot and Bulwark -- remember its all about fire and move. Generally, you'll be giving SRM's and Jump Jets to your strikers/cavalry

Scouts - Ace pilot and Sensor Lock. You really need sensor lock as you'll want to use your scout in conjunction with your IDFS mechs raining LRM's on targets that are well outside of IDFS LOS. I usually take Ace pilot as the big skill because you need to fire and move. You could also get away with using breaching shot and bulwark in the case of a light sniper (Panther with PPC).

After a while, you'll stop using light mechs anyway because the Vanilla game throws waves of heavy mechs at you so realistically you need bigger mechs that can trade damage better

Eventually you'll be using brawling mechs with big hammers, so its more optimal to take Tactician and Bulwark because you want to go first and also use reserve turn so you can cheese having two rounds of combat on initial contact with the enemy after they finish moving all their mechs conveniently into your LOS (because the AI usually sprints its mech to you the opening rounds should always be reserve turn until the AI is in LOS)

[Senor Cinco]

Originally posted by danko9696:

Originally posted by Señor Cinco:

I think it really comes down to one's playstyle. IMO, the only skill needed is sensor lock.

It comes down to one's playstyle but Sensor Lock is needed? I disagree. You don't need Sensor Lock and all missions can be beaten without it.

It's not needed for those that adopt a different playstyle. It's imperative for mine.

A PHX with 120 Rangefinder and sensor lock can get eyes on the target, while a MAD 3R throws 6 AC2s rnds downrange to 700m, The single best headshot combination, from my perspective. Yea, and AC2 is only 25 but when you miss... it doesn't destroy the armor when you have to take 3 turns to get a mech down.

Sensor lock is not 'needed' to fight, sure. Neither are LRMs, SRMs or ballistics. It all comes down to playstyle. You don't have to have 4 ATLAS to do a mission.

EDIT:
Main point being... MWs should be thought of as Mech specific. In general... I build most of my pilots in an even progression. Advancing Gunnery and Guts as first priority in the next tear.

Specific skill perks are tailored to a specific mech and it's specific mech role.

[danko9696]

Originally posted by Señor Cinco:

It's not needed for those that adopt a different playstyle. It's imperative for mine.

Now that's more clear. I understood your previous comment as it depends on the playstyle with the exception of Sensor Lock.

Originally posted by Señor Cinco:

A PHX with 120 Rangefinder and sensor lock can get eyes on the target, while a MAD 3R throws 6 AC2s rnds downrange to 700m, The single best headshot combination, from my perspective. Yea, and AC2 is only 25 but when you miss... it doesn't destroy the armor when you have to take 3 turns to get a mech down.

Sure, that works but with a rangefinder on a Marauder you shouldn't need any dedicated mech for spotting. Also I'm unsure about what you're saying about the 25 damage. Do you mean the regular UAC2 is better than the UAC2++?

IMO a 3×UAC2++ 2×ERML++ or a 2×UAC2++ 4×ERML++ is much better than a 3×UAC2++, not to mention if we include the M2R.

Originally posted by Señor Cinco:

Main point being... MWs should be thought of as Mech specific. In general... I build most of my pilots in an even progression. Advancing Gunnery and Guts as first priority in the next tear.

Specific skill perks are tailored to a specific mech and it's specific mech role.

As I see it roles are not that specific. They can be but they don't have to.

For example an Outrider pilot can work very well from a Firestarter up to a 100t mech. It suits a spotter role, sniper, direct damage support, harasser, non melee brawler... You don't need Outriders in your lance, but if you use them that's a safe bet imo. The only requirement is having jump jets in the mech. Without them Ace Pilot is not very good.

[Senor Cinco]

Originally posted by danko9696:

Sure, that works but with a rangefinder on a Marauder you shouldn't need any dedicated mech for spotting. Also I'm unsure about what you're saying about the 25 damage. Do you mean the regular UAC2 is better than the UAC2++?

lol ...no. I'm saying that for me, UAC2s are the best weapon in the game. No matter the +.

For me, roles are very specific. A Locust and a Blackjack. 2 starting mechs. Those two , alone can clear any map with a hiding spot for the locust. The enemies will gather in a wad the BJ will spinaltap from 700m. No rangefinder in the game can do that. Put in in the head of the locust and the range is increased even further.

That base starting lance evolves into the PXH and the Maddy. Once the Maddy get's 3 UAC2's, it's headhunting after that. The PXH, with that extended sight, can spot enemies early, jump behind a wall and sen loc.

With that alone, to build from, no mech enemy is off limits. If they can't target you, they can't shoot.

EDIT:
Ahhh.... I see the confusion. Sorry. I'm an idiot. AC2 is only 25 but with 3 UAC2's that's 6 AC2 rounds being shot at the same time. You have to land 3 in the head but it can take upwards of 3-4 turns. Even with a Gauss. I have a lot of luck with them and they don't destroy the salvage, like a Gauss, when you're missing the head.

The +'s are just gravy for the AC2 biscuits.

EDIT2:
Specific mechs like that Locust has a specific role. It's eyes only. One job... Identify and mark the target. That's it. And to get the most out of it, The pilot has to have Sure Footing, Sensor Loc and Master Tac.

Evasion is it's armor. It needs no armor. Strip it down to 8 JJ and a SLzr. Because the game makes you arm at least one weapon. Sure footing gives it more of what it needs.

While SL is a given in this case, that mech can function even better with a Master Tac. Having that extra bit, ensures it can move first and GTFO of the way.

Then there's the other 2 spots in my standard lance. Assault roles. 2 mechs that are slow, tanky and can deal at least 100 damage. JJs on every mech, as well. Those two have specific roles and my pilots for those mechs have Bullwark and .... whatever else. It really doesn't matter. It's usually Master Tac, for them as well. So, that comes with SL for them too, if the Scout gets into trouble.

[danko9696]

Originally posted by Señor Cinco:

lol ...no. I'm saying that for me, UAC2s are the best weapon in the game. No matter the +.

The ++ matters a LOT. The regular UAC2 is not close to be the best weapon of the game while the UAC2++ is on par with the ERML++ IMO. It adds 40% damage and two less tons of weight. That is huge.

Originally posted by Señor Cinco:

For me, roles are very specific. A Locust and a Blackjack. 2 starting mechs. Those two , alone can clear any map with a hiding spot for the locust. The enemies will gather in a wad the BJ will spinaltap from 700m. No rangefinder in the game can do that. Put in in the head of the locust and the range is increased even further.

I mentioned two Marauder loadouts but it can be done with something like a Jenner too. Just not as consistent:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2168346513

...a good medium:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2172977354

...a good heavy:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2208567984

...a decent assault:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2161984232


And this is the power of a RF+++ if you really take advantage from it. Also no need for evasion:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2128596538

Originally posted by Señor Cinco:

That base starting lance evolves into the PXH and the Maddy. Once the Maddy get's 3 UAC2's, it's headhunting after that. The PXH, with that extended sight, can spot enemies early, jump behind a wall and sen loc.

With the builds mentioned above you can not just beat but cheese most missions using a Marauder.

This is an Ambush mission in Lunar biome, I think the second hardest mission in the game:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2059952506

...or an easier mission with no time limit:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2782553040

Anything short of some Ambush missions, Attack & Defend or Target Acquisition and you'll have a lot of leeway with a jumpy Marauder sniper. For how much deadly the mech plus the range you have a lot of mobility and survivability. You can spot for yourself, or for other mechs if you're not soloing. It makes for a fairly good support mech on its own due to firepower range and mobility, not the best but a decent spotter, not very good but a decent finisher (okay-ish raw damage without PS), can capture positions, lure foes, ... It can do almost anything from decent to very well besides staying still and act as a damage sponge.

Originally posted by Señor Cinco:

Ahhh.... I see the confusion. Sorry. I'm an idiot. AC2 is only 25 but with 3 UAC2's that's 6 AC2 rounds being shot at the same time. You have to land 3 in the head but it can take upwards of 3-4 turns. Even with a Gauss. I have a lot of luck with them and they don't destroy the salvage, like a Gauss, when you're missing the head.

Big hitter or not, Gauss or not, with a Marauder there is no risk of destroying the salvage when missing the head unless you're trying to headcap light mechs or low tier mediums.

AC2 is 25 damage, AC2++ is 35 damage, UAC2 is 25×2 damage, UAC2++ is 35×2 damage. With 6×35 damage you only need to land two against 0% damage reduction to headcap instead of three, although the second shot from each weapon-salvo has reduced chances to hit the head.

Requiring 3-4 turns doesn't see very good performance to me, even worse if on top of that you need a dedicated spotter working for you.

A 6×ERML++ 1×UAC2++ M2R has 79/79/51/24% to headcap (0-60% D.R.), a 98/98/93/81% with two salvos, so more than two salvos happens but is relatively rare, and against vulnerable foes with 0-20% damage reduction most of the time you one shot them. IMO that would be the top headcapper in vanilla. You can have higher chance than that but it would be at the cost of range and heat.

Originally posted by Señor Cinco:

Evasion is it's armor. It needs no armor. Strip it down to 8 JJ and a SLzr. Because the game makes you arm at least one weapon. Sure footing gives it more of what it needs.

You don't need evasion either, long range plus Ace Pilot plus high firepower is enough. And in some maps you're going to be sensor locked, a locust is going to take many hits for sure. Ace Pilot extends your range when on the move, imposing penalties that cannot be negated by the AI.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2405670946

[Senor Cinco]

Originally posted by danko9696:

Originally posted by Señor Cinco:

lol ...no. I'm saying that for me, UAC2s are the best weapon in the game. No matter the +.

The ++ matters a LOT. The regular UAC2 is not close to be the best weapon of the game while the UAC2++ is on par with the ERML++ IMO. It adds 40% damage and two less tons of weight. That is huge.

Man... I'm sorry you had to post all of that. If you think there's an argument here, over a +++ being somehow suggested as 'inferior' to standard issue weapons. Then we are either lost in translation or something.