Harmony Gold Loses!!!

[Citizen Gamer]

http://www.sarna.net/news/harmony-golds-case-against-harebrained-schemes-dismissed/

[The Fifth Horseman]

Originally posted by 󠀡󠀡󠀡󠀡󠀡󠀡󠀡󠀡󠀡󠀡󠀡󠀡󠀡Uriel:

Why don't companies create new mechs rather than using existing creations?

Originally posted by meltdown:

Curious as to this myself, the only thing I can think of is they are already seated within the universe and lore.

It was actually done - three times so far.
1. The redesigns by... FanPro, (I think?) under Project Phoenix were, not to put a too fine point on it, butt-ugly and far too different for the players to accept.
2. Catalyst redesigned them again to something vaguely similar - but distinct enough to at least theoretically pass legal requirements for not violating Harmony Gold's dubious claim.
3. Piranha Games' (PGI) redesigns were produced for Mechwarrior Online starting in 2015. While the specific designs differ from Catalyst's, the same strategy was used - vaguely similar enough to please the fans, but distinct enough to pass legal muster.

Harmony Gold sued PGI and Catalyst over those anyway. According to PGI their previous attempts to discuss the matter with HG indicate HG sees all mecha (!) as violations of their "exclusive rights" and would sue them anyway even if the designs were completely different.

Originally posted by Sparkled:

Tatsunoko and HG have the right's to the mechs as they appear in the animation while Big West has the underlying rights of the designs themselves, even the Japanese courts agreed on that much. The current questions are whether or not the animation rights are enough to grant them standing and whether Big West ever requested HG to defend the rights on their behalf.

Basically this. The rights to a show containing a pre-existing work vs the actual rights to said pre-existing work is one of the points of contention here (and one of PGI's arguments, if I recall correctly).

I'd avoid quoting articles that talk about the "decision in favor of Harebrained", no such thing exists in the current case.

Correct again. This was a voluntary dismissal initiated jointly by HG and HBS.

[Claus]

Originally posted by Ruin:

Originally posted by Claus:

No wonder copyright was originally american made, it is such a flawed system that almost encourage users to abuse it and it is abused many times a day. Sadly corrupt agreements and deals made sure that they can use copyrights in europe which should never have happened, nobody here has ever respected copyrights.

Copyrights is a big joke and really puts shame to the country that was foolish enough to invent such flawed system in the first place. Names and ideas can not be claimed as they belong to everyone, wether you decided to use it first should give you absolute no right to deny others to use the same name/idea and especially not simply because you have more money.

Disgusting system.

So you create a work of art, fiction, music, or any other creative work, and everyone should just have free reign on it's use? Is that really what you're suggesting?

Same with names of established franchises? You'd be ok with creating a highly successful and profitable franchise, just for someone else to come along, use the same title and profit off that franchise through the release a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ rip-off, not to mention damaging your original franchise in the process, through the bad PR the ripoff generates?

If you truely believe that everyone should have free access to another's creative works, you've clearly never created something original that ends up being of true value...

IP and copyright law might be a flawed system, but it's a hell of alot better for the creators/owners of the materials/franchises being protected than having no protection at all...

Yes, they should have the right to use the same name or idea to create whatever they are creating, that's what you call competition.

It's not really a secret that everyone copy eachother at some point and this is how things improve, but since gaming has turned into such a shady business it's really easy to see why things like this happens far too often.

[Ruin]

Originally posted by Claus:

Originally posted by Ruin:

So you create a work of art, fiction, music, or any other creative work, and everyone should just have free reign on it's use? Is that really what you're suggesting?

Same with names of established franchises? You'd be ok with creating a highly successful and profitable franchise, just for someone else to come along, use the same title and profit off that franchise through the release a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ rip-off, not to mention damaging your original franchise in the process, through the bad PR the ripoff generates?

If you truely believe that everyone should have free access to another's creative works, you've clearly never created something original that ends up being of true value...

IP and copyright law might be a flawed system, but it's a hell of alot better for the creators/owners of the materials/franchises being protected than having no protection at all...

Yes, they should have the right to use the same name or idea to create whatever they are creating, that's what you call competition.

So, I could go and create a TV series called The Walking Dead, fill it full of low budget props and highschool drama drop outs, and then sell a few episodes on DVD, making a quick buck off the back of a massive, already established franchise, and pissing off alot of people expecting the real show, and no one should be upset about this?

That's not promoting competition, that's indirectly stealing another person's hard work (and income from said work), as they have established the reputation for the franchise which I am ripping off to make money for myself...

There's nothing stopping me creating a competitive zombie series, ala Z Nation, but IP law is there to prevent me using a title which people will falsly think is related directly to another person's work...

Same goes for artwork, and even in-game textures... There's been plenty of game mods over the years that have landed in hot water, as well as even a few indie games pulled off Steam for directly ripping off textures from other games...

What about the reverse, where some small startup creates something successful, just to have a major company step in and rip off everything about their work, leaving them with nothing? That's not promoting competition, all that does is to help establish monopolies (or aid existing ones) with no one to reign in the big players pushing out the small ones...

Originally posted by Claus:

It's not really a secret that everyone copy eachother at some point and this is how things improve, but since gaming has turned into such a shady business it's really easy to see why things like this happens far too often.

Taking inspiration is one thing, but directly plagiarising another person's work, or intentionally naming your product in an effort to deceive people into thinking your work is related to some other, generally bigger/more successful work, is wrong and rightly illegal under IP/copyright law...

You clearly don't understand what it is you're even talking about and, like I suggested previously, have clearly never created an original work of any true value, otherwise you'd be more inclined to want to protect your creation...

Just thinking, you're not a Notch fan, and still pissed at Bethesda over the whole "scrolls" thing, are you? Your arguments here smack of the same rot I saw floating around during all that...

[[CULT] Siren]

As im tired an insanely lazy can someone explain this to me?

[Burt Macklin - FBI]

Originally posted by Siren:

As im tired an insanely lazy can someone explain this to me?

Google it you loser.

[Eastrong]

In a nutshell, will we get unseen mechs?

[wendigo211]

Originally posted by Eastrong:

In a nutshell, will we get unseen mechs?

No. But it could change down the road.

We are getting the following unseen mechs:

• Locust
  
• Shadowhawk
  
• Griffin
  
• Wolverine
  
• Thunderbolt
  
• Battlemaster

Just none of the Macross ones.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Sure, but you've probably seen soap operas with less complicated relationships.

Back in the 80s, several mecha anime are produced in Japan: Macross (this one as a joint project by Studio Nue, Big West and Tatsunoko, this is IMPORTANT), Mospeada, Southern Cross, Crusher Joe and Dougram. As common for this sort of thing there, they have model kit and toy tie-ins.
Twentieth Century Imports, a US-based importer of Japanese toys, licenses the rights to those model kits and the associated artwork.
When FASA first produces Battletech - in its' original incarnation as Battledroids - they license designs and kits from TCI, specifically ones related to Dougram, Macross and Crusher Joe, about a dozen mechs total.
One of the Macross toys - VF1S Super Valkyrie - is licensed to Hasbro and is used as one of the G1 Transformers, Jetfire (this becomes relevant later on). When Hasbro's license lapses, the design is replaced with a different one.
At about the same time, Harmony Gold licenses rights to Macross, Mospeada and Southern Cross from Tatsunoko, then recuts and redubs them into what the western audiences know as Robotech.
Tatsunoko's license grants Harmony Gold fairly broad rights to the series... broad enough to register international trademark on Macross and squat the franchise globally for the next few decades - which Harmony Gold of course does. A few products manage to slip by (such as Macross Plus) in the mid 90s, but eventually Harmony Gold's grip tightens and the west does not see any official Macross sequel for next two decades

By mid-90s, FASA has a successful line of Battletech-related products, aiming to expand into actual toys. They approach Playmates, who is producing a line of mecha toys tied to the Exosquad cartoon and is in talks with Harmony Gold about producing Robotech tie-ins.
FASA's negotiations with Playmates break down.
Playmates publishes a preview of an Exosquad toy - Heavy Attack E-Frame - that looks like a copy of Mad Cat/ Timber Wolf, a FASA-original mech.
FASA sues Playmates, but loses the case due to "numerous design differences" resulting in Playmates' product bering ruled just barely defensible. Playmates never actually produces the toy in question in the end.

This debacle gets Harmony Gold's attention, and they sue FASA over their use of Macross designs. Having sustained heavy financial setbacks due to legal costs from the Playmates lawsuit, FASA opts to settle and removes all of the previously licensed third party designs from their product line. These designs are collectively known as the Unseen.

At the end of the 90s, FASA sells the rights to the Battletech franchise to WizKids, who produce a "Clix" game called Mechwarrior: Dark Age while licensing FanPro to continue the Battletech line, now redubbed "Classic Battletech".

In early 2000s the two financers of Macross' production - Big West and Studio Nue - are suing each other over the rights to it. Big West is ruled to own the rights to 41 character and mecha designs (which includes all the designs Harmony Gold sued FASA over way back).
In the US, Harmony Gold insists that the Japanese court ruling does not affect their license. Over the next few years, they're also getting a bit sue-happy and go after several companies who try to internationally sell imported Macross toys.

At roughly the same time, FanPro releases Technical Readout: Project Phoenix, containing drastic redesigns of the Unseen mechs. These designs tend to be, to put it mildly, butt-ugly and do not find much traction in the fanbase.

In 2009, the first iteration of Mechwarrior 5 is in the works - while eventually it fails to materialize, a trailer is released containing a replica of one of the original Unseen designs - the Warhammer . Harmony Gold takes notice and issues cease-and-desists against several sites hosting the trailer.

In 2012, Piranha Games and Infinite Games Publishing release Mechwarrior Online, a Free-to-Play first person shooter set in the Battletech universe. Infinite Games Publishing's monetization model is rather cynical, to say the least.

In 2013, Hasbro releases a limited "G.I.-JOE vs Transformers" toy set containing a non-transformable jet with similar attachments and paintjob as the jet form of the original Jetfire although using a different base aircraft.
This lawsuit was eventually settled out of court - while we don't know the terms of the settlement, Hasbro resumed sales of the set.

The same year, Piranha Games attempts to license the rights to Macross designs from Harmony Gold - who at this point still claim to have permanent exclusive rights to them - but are refused. Piranha releases a Project Phoenix mech pack containing a number of non-Macross Unseen redesigned by their art team to match MWO's art style (and conveniently sidestep any potential legal issues). The designs are mostly still recognizable as what they were supposed to replace and rather positively received as a result.

In 2014, Infinite Games Publishing goes bankrupt, to the tune of around 20 million US dollars' worth of debts. Piranha buys out IGP's interest in Mechwarrior Online and becomes independent.

In 2015, In Medias Res - who now hold the license for Battletech products, having obtained it after WizKids was acquired by Topps, and use it under their Catalyst Game Labs imprint - decides to take another stab at redesigning the Unseen.
These "Nuseen" look quite similar to the originals but still include enough differences as to be legally distinct. Or so the company hopes.

Piranha starts releasing mech packs containing their takes on Macross Unseen. Much like their Project Phoenix pack, the mechs' original roots are recognizable and thus positively received by the fanbase despite a number of design differences that in theory should make them legally distinct.

Harebrained Schemes, founded by one of Battletech's original creators, launches a Kickstarter campaign for a turn-based tactics game that adapts the franchise (it's important to note that only one of the franchise's official video game tie-ins had been turn-based, and that was in 1987 and pretty poorly executed over all). The campaign is wildly succesful, overshooting all Kickstarter goals. Harebrained opts to not produce their own mech models, but instead license the ones created by Piranha for Mechwarrior Online.

Cut to 2017.
Harmony Gold sues Piranha and In Medias Res over their renditions of the Macross Unseen, as well as Harebrained Schemes for several other mechs they claim to be also infringing on "their" rights.

A few months later, Harmony Gold enters into a dispute with Tatsunoko. Among other things, Tatsunoko is of the opinion Harmony Gold has been shafting them on royalty payments. Per their contract, the dispute goes to arbitration.
The arbitrator's ruling contains several interesting points, the relevant one being that Tatsunoko never had the rights to the 41 character and mecha designs held by Big West and therefore could not have licensed them to Harmony Gold - something their 2003 license agreement alluded to but never stated openly.

In Medias Res fails to answer the lawsuit and has a default judgement entered against them.

Piranha Games uses the arbitration ruling as a basis to question Harmony Gold's legal standing to file the case in the first place and issue a motion for Summary Judgement against Harmony Gold on that basis.
The motion is dismissed without prejudice (meaning it can be refiled) when Harmony Gold attempts to amend its' complaint with slightly different wording - which now accuses all allegedly infringing designs to be "unlawful copies" instead of "unlicensed derivatives"

In 2018 (we are HERE), Harmony Gold voluntarily drops all claims against Harebrained and its' founder.
Harmony Gold also attempts to use its' own prior use of the designs - and attempts to prosecute third parties over their use - as proof of ownership, producing a number of statements and testimonies to that effect... but no documented proof to the actual extent of rights they claim to have licensed.
Piranha files a second Motion For Summary Judgement, which is due to be reviewed sometime soon (possibly this week).
Harmony Gold files for a letter of request to Japanese courts to demand Big West(!) to turn over any and all documents relating to license grants to Tatsunoko and/or Harmony Gold. This process can take up to a year, and due to how it functions Big West cannot be forced to comply - they can just as well respond with 黙殺 (mokusatsu, look it up). This request is still to be ruled on as well and has been opposed by Piranha citing it as a "fishing expedition" (Piranha's lawyers are so savage, I'd swear they own a license to kill with contemptuous sarcasm).

[Ruin]

Originally posted by The Fifth Horseman:

(Piranha's lawyers are so savage, I'd swear they own a license to kill with contemptuous sarcasm).

Given the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that's gone on here, I vaguely recall Piranha Games suggesting (in an interview about the lawsuit) that they're doing this just to try and finally ♥♥♥♥ Harmony Gold back, by forcing them to prove they actually have a legitimate legal right to sue all and sundry like they insist on doing...

[Steellwaters]

yea..but I never liked the Japanese mech lines...didn't even really appreciate FAFSA's Draconis designs but I loved all the original FAFSA Mechs. In my opinion Japanese mechs are zoomie withfast moving combat and missles flying out of every orifice. FAFSA bought lumbering 100 ton mechs that could pick up a defeated mechs arm and beat his friend with it while infantry equiped with climbing gear hid in treelines waiting for a chance to immobilize it. I believe that there is more than the visual appearance at play here. the Japanese cockpits are obviosly much larger compared to the rest of the mech so we are looking at 2 different scales.
I wouldn't fund or buy a Roboteck or Macross game regardless of the existance of battletech.
just my half nickle

[Ciecieji]

Originally posted by Wantoomany:

Considering how HGs own claims to the license are falling apart in court. I dont think its fair to say any one side was more sketchy then the other. Im willing to believe that all sides felt they got the licenses in good faith. Basically both HG and FASA got their licenses from third parties who got them from someone else who never seemed to have the rights to begin with.

The whole situation was pretty much a legal disaster waiting to happen. It really just a shame its been going on so long.

I find it hard to beleive that HG is acting in good faith on anything. Look at how they made their initial money with the entire Zulu situation. HG is sketchy as hell.

http://camerainthesun.com/?p=25727

Most of their associated operating companies eventually got in trouble for doing something illegal and their founder was convicted of tax fraud and embezzlement in Italian court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Agrama

The referenced "skillfull negotiation", which caused the production company to lose money on the production of Zulu while Harmony Gold made money, was probably an outright act of theft as well, but since South America was under cultural embargo at the time, they couldn't really defend the IP in Harmony Gold's distribution markets.