How to build energy-based mech

[Sabi The Worst Player Ever]

Pretty much every heavy mech I encounter and salvage ends up being energy weapons orientated. Orion-K (2 missiles slots, 1 AC slot, 4 energy), Quickdraw (4 energy, 2 missiles), Thunderbolt (7 energy, 1 missile) and my last finding, Black Knight (8 energy).

When I first saw Black Knight in action, I said "wow it looks super cool, I want it!". Now Im kinda meh. I tried placing 4 jumpjets on it, 2 PPC, 4 Medium Lasers, default armor ratings and heatsinks to max weight limit but it still fries itself pretty fast when start using PPCs.

So how do you make viable full energy mech? And are there any missiles or AC based heavy mechs that are good in use? I didnt find Jagermech to be much better than his medium counterparts...

[DarkFenix]

Origineel geplaatst door Mudpony:

Origineel geplaatst door DarkFenix:

A good weapon setup has something to penetrate enemy armour, then supporting weapons to lay on the raw damage. The PPC is the only energy weapon remotely capable of the former role, but it generates so much heat it's prohibitive to equipping other weapons with it, unless you load up on tons and tons of heat sinks, which is also prohibitive to equipping other weapons. Smart players grab an autocannon or two instead, which generates little heat and allows you to stack on loads of missiles and MLs.

Except that load of MLs also generates heat. So then you need heat sinks. Which in turn makes a single PPC a viable choice over one of the longer range ACs, as those weigh more.

Mind you, a second PPC... definitely not worth it. One isn't bad though, between its concentrated damage and stability damage.

MLs do make heat, which is exactly why you don't want a PPC stacking another 40 heat on top of that. A single PPC is a great way to ensure your mech can't fire two alpha strikes without overheating, either that or it'll force you to take an absurd number of heat sinks.

A PPC will give me 50 damage for 40 heat and 7 tons. An AC/5 will give me 45 damage for 10 heat and 9 tons. That AC/5 just saved me a lot more than two tons' worth of heat sinks. Leaving me much more freedom to use other heat-generating weapons.

[Grey Buddhist]

for energy builds (med laser ones that have 5 or more energy hard points), do the following:

- remove all items off the mech
- max armor.
- now put rear torso armors to about 45, center rear torso 50 or 55.
- put leg armors anywhere from 100-130 (more is overkill usually unless you get knocked over alot).
--- (when lowering armor values to the above numbers, stop when you get to the lowest Total empty weight that is a rounded number. example: if your at 71.13 tons, then either remove some more armor till your 71, or add armor until your at 72.)

- Now add max jump jets
- now add max medium lasers
- now add heat sinks until your heat bar (on the refit screen left side) is 4-5 (never less than 4 and you don't need more than 5). This allows you to comfortably jump, and alpha strike, usually to your hearts content.
Note: on energy builds that also have missile hard points, add at minimum (1) SRM6 with 1 ton of ammo if you can.
If you have even more room, add another SRM (6, 4, 2...in that order for your 2nd). Only add a 2nd SRM6 if you can afford one more ton of ammo (and you can still keep your heat up at 4 minimum!), if you add an SRM4 or SRM2, then no need to add more ammo, but still don't let your heat bar go less than 4.

With the above build (tested on Grasshopper, Black Knight, Thunderbolt...and even a Dragon fast brawler build, you can quickly find the enemy, close with the enemy pretty fast, and when your in range, you will usually tear them apart pretty quicly.
Keep in mind, it is NOT recommended that you ever charge heavy vehicles (the ones with dual AC20's, or the ones with triple PPC's), and never charge Assaults. Those vehicles and mechs usually have enough armor to withstand your close assault and their return fire will clobber your senseless if your lucky (kill you if your not). But against most Heavy mechs, and all Light/Medium mechs, charging in with a fast medium laser energy build will tear thru enemies and help you spot for your LRM boats/snipers.

All of the above is simply my opinion and experiences with the enemies I have fought during my play through.
I have finished the campaign, started another one for another run through.
The last 'mainly energy build' I used was a Battlemaster. My final lance was:
Highlander (the lostech one)
Victor (AC20) - Used Battlemaster here, until I got the Victor.
Stalker (LRM boat)
Zeus (AC10)

[Sparkled]

Origineel geplaatst door Sabi The Worst Player Ever:

Pretty much every heavy mech I encounter and salvage ends up being energy weapons orientated. Orion-K (2 missiles slots, 1 AC slot, 4 energy), Quickdraw (4 energy, 2 missiles), Thunderbolt (7 energy, 1 missile) and my last finding, Black Knight (8 energy).

When I first saw Black Knight in action, I said "wow it looks super cool, I want it!". Now Im kinda meh. I tried placing 4 jumpjets on it, 2 PPC, 4 Medium Lasers, default armor ratings and heatsinks to max weight limit but it still fries itself pretty fast when start using PPCs.

So how do you make viable full energy mech? And are there any missiles or AC based heavy mechs that are good in use? I didnt find Jagermech to be much better than his medium counterparts...

I like the other Thunderbolt better. Using an ac5, 4x m lasers, 2x srm 4. No heat troubles and if you can get the right ++ weapons it's around 300 damage + stability damage and up to 13 crit chances.

[Mudpony]

Origineel geplaatst door DarkFenix:

A PPC will give me 50 damage for 40 heat and 7 tons. An AC/5 will give me 45 damage for 10 heat and 9 tons. That AC/5 just saved me a lot more than two tons' worth of heat sinks. Leaving me much more freedom to use other heat-generating weapons.

Or you can have a PPC, an extra heat sink, and one more ML (hard points allowing), without needing ammo. It's pretty close overall, with some benefits either way, and therefore, a single PPC isn't bad. Just if you go the AC route, you probably plan on firing the AC up close as well as far away, while with the PPC, you'll use it at range and during an alphastrike, but hold off at other times for heat, firing that extra ML or SRM or something instead.

[DarkFenix]

I'd say if you're going for an ML build, you need a really agile mech. Your alpha is going to be low, but if you're hitting an enemy from behind that becomes irrelevant. It doesn't take much damage from behind to fell even an Atlas (70 CT and 50 RT/LT armour, 160 CT and 105 RT/LT structure). But frankly I think such a mech isn't going to be after the kill so much as crippling the enemy. A high crit weapon like a machinegun following up an alpha strike to remove the armour is nigh guaranteed to explode any ammo present. It'd be quite something to blow off two pieces of an Atlas in one precision strike from a little Firestarter.

Origineel geplaatst door Mudpony:

Origineel geplaatst door DarkFenix:

A PPC will give me 50 damage for 40 heat and 7 tons. An AC/5 will give me 45 damage for 10 heat and 9 tons. That AC/5 just saved me a lot more than two tons' worth of heat sinks. Leaving me much more freedom to use other heat-generating weapons.

Or you can have a PPC, an extra heat sink, and one more ML (hard points allowing), without needing ammo. It's pretty close overall, with some benefits either way, and therefore, a single PPC isn't bad. Just if you go the AC route, you probably plan on firing the AC up close as well as far away, while with the PPC, you'll use it at range and during an alphastrike, but hold off at other times for heat, firing that extra ML or SRM or something instead.

If you have a weapon you're not firing, that weapon is half useless, a 7 ton paperweight (and incidentally I included ammo weight in my numbers, AC/5 is 8 tons, plus 1 ton ammo). That's why there's no benefit to the PPC, if it's constantly firing it's wasting weight in the form of heat sinks, if it stops firing, it itself is the waste of weight, it's a lose-lose.

[evilauthor]

Origineel geplaatst door DarkFenix:

Origineel geplaatst door Mudpony:

Except that load of MLs also generates heat. So then you need heat sinks. Which in turn makes a single PPC a viable choice over one of the longer range ACs, as those weigh more.

Mind you, a second PPC... definitely not worth it. One isn't bad though, between its concentrated damage and stability damage.

MLs do make heat, which is exactly why you don't want a PPC stacking another 40 heat on top of that. A single PPC is a great way to ensure your mech can't fire two alpha strikes without overheating, either that or it'll force you to take an absurd number of heat sinks.

A PPC will give me 50 damage for 40 heat and 7 tons. An AC/5 will give me 45 damage for 10 heat and 9 tons. That AC/5 just saved me a lot more than two tons' worth of heat sinks. Leaving me much more freedom to use other heat-generating weapons.

But in this game, you use what you can get. Are you not going to use a Black Knight (75 tonner) just because it has all energy hard points and no ballistics? Especially if the every other mech you have is 55 tons and under?

[DarkFenix]

Origineel geplaatst door evilauthor:

Origineel geplaatst door DarkFenix:

MLs do make heat, which is exactly why you don't want a PPC stacking another 40 heat on top of that. A single PPC is a great way to ensure your mech can't fire two alpha strikes without overheating, either that or it'll force you to take an absurd number of heat sinks.

A PPC will give me 50 damage for 40 heat and 7 tons. An AC/5 will give me 45 damage for 10 heat and 9 tons. That AC/5 just saved me a lot more than two tons' worth of heat sinks. Leaving me much more freedom to use other heat-generating weapons.

But in this game, you use what you can get. Are you not going to use a Black Knight (75 tonner) just because it has all energy hard points and no ballistics? Especially if the every other mech you have is 55 tons and under?

Oh I did. I used a Black Knight and an Awesome while I had no other alternative. Quite a few missions I had to do with them too, wrangling them back and forth to try and get them to compete with my other mechs, but the simple answer I came to is that they aren't competitive. Improving their damage destroys their heat efficiency to the point where they have to stop firing all the time, improving their heat efficiency destroys their damage output, all the while my other mechs could maintain a better damage output for a longer time.

I've no issue with using energy weapon mechs when you have to, I'm mostly just arguing the point that there's no such thing as a truly viable setup. There are setups that suffice for the time being, and that's about it.

[Mudpony]

Origineel geplaatst door DarkFenix:

If you have a weapon you're not firing, that weapon is half useless, a 7 ton paperweight (and incidentally I included ammo weight in my numbers, AC/5 is 8 tons, plus 1 ton ammo). That's why there's no benefit to the PPC, if it's constantly firing it's wasting weight in the form of heat sinks, if it stops firing, it itself is the waste of weight, it's a lose-lose.

Except that isn't how reality works. It's fine if it is a 7 ton paper weight half the time, if the overall effectiveness is about the same. Either way, you're investing 9 tons for about a certain level of performance. With a PPC, HS, and ML, you get to debuff enemy to hit a minor amount, get infinite shots, hit for 5 harder at range, generate a bigger alpha strike, and generally disippate more heat, but a chunk of the time, you won't be using the PPC because yeah, it generates a lot of heat. The other way, you're doing a bit more damage in the later rounds, but can run out of ammo or have it blown up. Overall, it's about equally effective.

And that's what matters. Effectiveness. That I use A some of the time, and B at others, rather than using C all the time, is irrelevant, if I get about the same performance either way.

That said, most of the time, mech hardpoints will dictate which route to take ;)

[Drain]

Carry less weapons. My black knight only has 2 PPCs, 2 medium lasers, and that's it. There's no reason to carry more guns which you cannot fire. Having a long row of energy is stupid. You can't shoot all of them. Take guns off, put sinks on, this is how a veteran builds a mech. More does not equal better if you can't fire them. Less weapons with more shots > more weapons with less shots. Use the freed weight on more heat sinks or other stats. 2 PPCs which I can fire every turn, is better than 3 which I cannot. Time spent waiting to cooldown is time spent not firing, and if you have to overheat to shoot, you're really doing it wrong.

[DarkFenix]

Origineel geplaatst door Mudpony:

Origineel geplaatst door DarkFenix:

If you have a weapon you're not firing, that weapon is half useless, a 7 ton paperweight (and incidentally I included ammo weight in my numbers, AC/5 is 8 tons, plus 1 ton ammo). That's why there's no benefit to the PPC, if it's constantly firing it's wasting weight in the form of heat sinks, if it stops firing, it itself is the waste of weight, it's a lose-lose.

Except that isn't how reality works. It's fine if it is a 7 ton paper weight half the time, if the overall effectiveness is about the same. Either way, you're investing 9 tons for about a certain level of performance. With a PPC, HS, and ML, you get to debuff enemy to hit a minor amount, get infinite shots, hit for 5 harder at range, generate a bigger alpha strike, and generally disippate more heat, but a chunk of the time, you won't be using the PPC because yeah, it generates a lot of heat. The other way, you're doing a bit more damage in the later rounds, but can run out of ammo or have it blown up. Overall, it's about equally effective.

And that's what matters. Effectiveness. That I use A some of the time, and B at others, rather than using C all the time, is irrelevant, if I get about the same performance either way.

It's basically impossible to run an AC/5 out of ammo. That's one of the other issues I was going to bring up with regard to energy weapons, one that is to do with mission design rather than weapon balance. Missions in Battletech are short, such that aside from LRMs I've never run out of ammo for anything, and never needed to try conserving ammo either. Limited ammo really isn't a balancing factor against weapons at all (except LRMs as I said). I can use a ballistic weapon every turn of combat, that weight is being used to inflict damage.

But a PPC I have to stop using because it's going to overheat me, well, that 7 inactive tons is a big deal. That's how a good mech build is made, the maximum possible tonnage must be of maximum possible use for the maximum period of time. If a weapon isn't firing, it's a waste by definition. If you can only fire that PPC every other turn, you might as well equip an MLaser instead, it'll generate half the heat but inflict the same damage firing continuously. With spotting distance at ~300m and sensor range not much longer, the ML loses one turn at most to the PPC while the sides close the distance.

[Avlaen]

Medium lasers are the best weapon in the game, so take as many as you can with heat sinks, then sprinkle in some more exotic weapons to round the mech out.

[Sparkled]

Origineel geplaatst door DarkFenix:

Origineel geplaatst door Mudpony:

Except that isn't how reality works. It's fine if it is a 7 ton paper weight half the time, if the overall effectiveness is about the same. Either way, you're investing 9 tons for about a certain level of performance. With a PPC, HS, and ML, you get to debuff enemy to hit a minor amount, get infinite shots, hit for 5 harder at range, generate a bigger alpha strike, and generally disippate more heat, but a chunk of the time, you won't be using the PPC because yeah, it generates a lot of heat. The other way, you're doing a bit more damage in the later rounds, but can run out of ammo or have it blown up. Overall, it's about equally effective.

And that's what matters. Effectiveness. That I use A some of the time, and B at others, rather than using C all the time, is irrelevant, if I get about the same performance either way.

It's basically impossible to run an AC/5 out of ammo. That's one of the other issues I was going to bring up with regard to energy weapons, one that is to do with mission design rather than weapon balance. Missions in Battletech are short, such that aside from LRMs I've never run out of ammo for anything, and never needed to try conserving ammo either. Limited ammo really isn't a balancing factor against weapons at all (except LRMs as I said). I can use a ballistic weapon every turn of combat, that weight is being used to inflict damage.

But a PPC I have to stop using because it's going to overheat me, well, that 7 inactive tons is a big deal. That's how a good mech build is made, the maximum possible tonnage must be of maximum possible use for the maximum period of time. If a weapon isn't firing, it's a waste by definition. If you can only fire that PPC every other turn, you might as well equip an MLaser instead, it'll generate half the heat but inflict the same damage firing continuously. With spotting distance at ~300m and sensor range not much longer, the ML loses one turn at most to the PPC while the sides close the distance.

To throw some math in; If you fire a PPC every other round vs an AC5 every round, the PPC will have done 350 damage by the time the AC5 runs out of ammo. In that time the AC5 would have done 675 damage.

[Fendelphi]

Grasshopper with 5 Mlasers and 6 Slasers. All weapons have some degree of +damage. This gives me an alpha of 300+ damage, which allowed me to 1-shot a fresh King Crab by jumping up behind it(no called shot, just fired normally).

The general tactic is to jump in a half circle around the enemy, trying to get on their flanks, WITHOUT FIRING, and use brace instead. This conserves your heat for when you really need it, and allows you to draw fire without too much issue(I usually have 5 evasion when the enemy starts shooting, + being Braced and being out of most Mlasers range).

Meanwhile, your other mechs engage with their LRMs and AC5s, some standing back, others circling the opposite way(creating 2 flanks, which increases the odds for a rear attack).

Once close enough, you jump in and either make a called shot on the torso or leg(if there are enemies behind your target, so you dont expose your back to them). Most heavies cant take 250 damage to the CT, especially if softened up by support fire from your lance, and mediums/lights definately cant.
Or you jump behind them(if there are no enemy that gets to shoot into your back and destroy them.
Next turn, you can either run to another enemy and punch them(90 damage + ~150 from Slasers), or jump in a new semi circle towards the next enemy and brace(allows you to sink some heat).

If you deem it too risky to jump into a group of enemies, jump into cover and fire from there. With 5 evasion and 25% damage reduction, 150 damage from the flank(hitting right arm, right leg or right torso, for instance) gives a decent concentrated fire on a few parts, and again, especially if the target has already been soften up by your fire support.

[Fendelphi]

Origineel geplaatst door Sparkled:

Origineel geplaatst door DarkFenix:

It's basically impossible to run an AC/5 out of ammo. That's one of the other issues I was going to bring up with regard to energy weapons, one that is to do with mission design rather than weapon balance. Missions in Battletech are short, such that aside from LRMs I've never run out of ammo for anything, and never needed to try conserving ammo either. Limited ammo really isn't a balancing factor against weapons at all (except LRMs as I said). I can use a ballistic weapon every turn of combat, that weight is being used to inflict damage.

But a PPC I have to stop using because it's going to overheat me, well, that 7 inactive tons is a big deal. That's how a good mech build is made, the maximum possible tonnage must be of maximum possible use for the maximum period of time. If a weapon isn't firing, it's a waste by definition. If you can only fire that PPC every other turn, you might as well equip an MLaser instead, it'll generate half the heat but inflict the same damage firing continuously. With spotting distance at ~300m and sensor range not much longer, the ML loses one turn at most to the PPC while the sides close the distance.

To throw some math in; If you fire a PPC every other round vs an AC5 every round, the PPC will have done 350 damage by the time the AC5 runs out of ammo. In that time the AC5 would have done 675 damage.

Actually it is 400 damage(it fires on every uneven number, and the AC5 can fire 15 times).

The PPC will have a general better accuracy(no refire penalty) and adds more stability damage per shot/turn(20 instead of 10). It also provides an accuracy debuff to the target(-5%).

It also deals 50 damage per shot, meaning it will reach internal(ie. can crit stuff like weapons and ammo) when the enemy has 46-49 armor on a location or finish a CT with structure at that range(also at 50, ofc).
This means, in some situations, it can finish an enemy in 1 turn, which would take the AC5 2 turns.

Generally, I prefer AC5s myself, but the PPC is an interesting alternative.

[Takoita]

It may change in the future, but currently PPC runs a bit too hot to use more than one per mech in most cases.

There are components available in the game that can allow you to push your machine much further heat-wise than it otherwise could stand (bigger overheat threshold, -x% hit generated, etc), but they require good luck on salvage drops or shop rosters or are otherwise limited in the number you can get, so I cannot include them into any advice in good faith.

Let's say you really want that second (or third, or fourth...) PPC anyway. It tends to be more practical to mount them on a second (or third, or fourth...) separate machine instead.

But! There is also that little tidbit about the stability damage PPC does. So you can mount it on something with an AC/5 or an LRM (or, ideally, both) to better make use of that. And if you happen to have to fire on an already prone target or a tank, it would make do more often than not anyway.

So energy-intensive platforms without any ballistic / missile hardpoints to speak of (examples being a Hunchback variant, Blackknight, Grasshopper...) are perhaps better reserved for lasers. But after a certain point in the game, getting close enough to fire off those sweet, sweet medium laser barrages can get dicey. Demolishers, SRM carriers and other nasties are at home at those ranges, so getting a medium to close range flank runs the risk of getting crippled or outright taken out too quickly. What to do?

Jumpjets become more important. Getting a few dodge chevrons and then bracing or using the Vigilance active ability can generally get you in, but that adds to the heat problems. You can jump in and shoot all of them at the same time, most of the time, but not always more than once. Which is not always enough.

Small lasers, while damage and heat efficient, perhaps will have to be replaced with MGs. Since those are the same range, but are generally better at exploiting armor breaches and do not heat you up. You can also turn off medium lasers and fire just machineguns if you are trying to score pilot injuries or blow off a breached sidetorso in hopes of killing the pilot for more salvage too.

Thus medium lasers are perhaps better suited for support slots on machines that don't use a lot of other energy weapons? But you can also choose to forgo some of your medium lasers in favour of being able to fire all your small lasers plus a small addition of mediums all the time, since small ones are so damage efficient instead, even if that would leave you with less weaponry shooting at medium ranges, and thus less flexible.

That leaves us with large lasers. I haven't been able to make use of them effectively yet. Mounting even four of those without habitually overheating or running underarmored seems to require an assault mech, and by that point in the game that damage tends to be insufficient.

I may be making loadout design mistakes I am not seeing, or get better results with + variants with increased damage, but for the purposes of cutting off limbs off of prone enemy assaults, just four large lasers is not enough. They do perform better against enemy tanks, but that's unlikely to be enough to recommend using them exclusively on a machine with such a small party size.

So maybe use them as PPCs, no more than one per machine, spread out all across the lance? They don't have stability damage or accuracy debuff on hit to back them up though.

EDIT:

Re: Vigilance. That thing can make or break an otherwise losing situation, so comm package upgrade modules that give you bonus morale points suddenly become more important than ever.