[MILD SPOILERS] So about the 'Mech Kamea Arano pilots later in the game...

[Dux Aquila]

Can someone please explain to me how Kamea Arano is piloting an Atlas II?

As far as I'm aware, Aleksandr Kerensky took every Atlas II with him when he and the remnants of the SLDF left the Inner Sphere. Only regular Atlas models remained; no Atlas II were left behind. It wasn't until the Battle of Tukayyid that they were even seen again by anyone outside the Clans.

XIII původně napsal:

By the way, since people miss it, THE INFORMATION ON SARNA THAT NO ATLAS II REMAINED IS WRONG. The TRO never said that no Atlas II was left (or even that there was no production capabilities for new ones), just that the pilots left.

Fearsome, can you please edit that into your OP, to avoid confusion?

Turns out that we were misinformed from the get go. Bear this in mind when reading through all the comments.

[Petrothian]

I think the key is the wording:

in that:
1) All Atlas II pilots assigned with an Atlas II left.
2) Lost/abandoned (such as the abandoned castle with the CRAZY MAN KILLING AI that kills everything that comes near) is consider lost/irretrivable. (until Dr. Farrah did her science magic :P ).

3) Therefore, the Atlas II in that castle taken over by the CRAZY AI, is consider lost, and not a unit/copy that can be used. thus "leave no Atlas II designs left behind (to be used in the inner sphere succesion wars)"

After all, Kerensky just don't want his forces to be used as pawns by the noble houses, I am pretty sure he can't take every factory/every datacore that contained how to build them with him.

(those would be bombed to oblivion during the succession wars).

[FemmeDracula]

Thomas původně napsal:

XIII původně napsal:

You mean we don't know how exactly they made that stuff back then. That's a big difference.

The idea of BT's lostech is entirely different; there, it's about highly advanced technology that is extremly complex and the knowledge or expertise was lost, and cannot be replaced.

If people in BT can just create something better than Lostech, then it wouldn't matter.

except the knowledge wasn't lost. It's being kept secret by a religíous order that doesn't want any successor state to have that knowledge.

if someone in the IS studies LosTech and gets close to figuring it out, either they are eliminated by a rival state/ComStar, or abducted and "convinced" to work for the other side.

Just think about all the knowledge the western world "lost" during the dark age.

Oh, dang, I totally forgot about how ComStar was involved in the decline.

[FemmeDracula]

Petrothian původně napsal:

I think the key is the wording:

in that:
1) All Atlas II pilots assigned with an Atlas II left.
2) Lost/abandoned (such as the abandoned castle with the CRAZY MAN KILLING AI that kills everything) is consider lost/irretrivable. (until Dr. Farrah did her science magic :P ).

3) Therefore, the Atlas II in that castle taken over by the CRAZY AI, is consider lost.

Also, while the Sarna.net page says that all Atlas IIs were taken, TRO 3075 doesn't say that at all.

[Petrothian]

Belle Sorciere původně napsal:

Petrothian původně napsal:

I think the key is the wording:

in that:
1) All Atlas II pilots assigned with an Atlas II left.
2) Lost/abandoned (such as the abandoned castle with the CRAZY MAN KILLING AI that kills everything) is consider lost/irretrivable. (until Dr. Farrah did her science magic :P ).

3) Therefore, the Atlas II in that castle taken over by the CRAZY AI, is consider lost.

Also, while the Sarna.net page says that all Atlas IIs were taken, TRO 3075 doesn't say that at all.

It really depends on how through and how to the letter one intepret it (the way Sarna word it really just means "All functioning and assigned Atlas II" to me, but considering how big the galaxy is and just how big SLDF is, I wouldn't be surpised if they forgot 1 or 2 somewhere in the middle of the backwaters being secured by a man killing-ship-exploding crazy AI.

and given the context that Kerensky just dont want his forces used by the noble houses.
it fits.

and yeah the TRO 3075 bit.

[FemmeDracula]

Petrothian původně napsal:

Belle Sorciere původně napsal:

Also, while the Sarna.net page says that all Atlas IIs were taken, TRO 3075 doesn't say that at all.

It really depends on how through and how to the letter one intepret it (the way Sarna word it really just means "All functioning and assigned Atlas II" to me, but considering how big the galaxy is and just how big SLDF is, I wouldn't be surpised if they forgot 1 or 2 somewhere in the middle of the backwaters being secured by a man killing-ship-exploding crazy AI.

and given the context that Kerensky just dont want his forces used by the noble houses.
it fits.

and yeah the TRO 3075 bit.

I agree with everything you just said, but my point was that Sarna's statement isn't sourced. The only sourcebook that talks about the distribution of Atlas IIs doesn't support the claim that all of them left the Inner Sphere, regardless of that sourcebook's quality. It reads to me like someone extrapolated from "The Atlas II wasn't seen in the Inner Sphere until Tukkayid" and "all the surviving Atlas II pilots left with Kerensky."

[Petrothian]

Belle Sorciere původně napsal:

Petrothian původně napsal:

It really depends on how through and how to the letter one intepret it (the way Sarna word it really just means "All functioning and assigned Atlas II" to me, but considering how big the galaxy is and just how big SLDF is, I wouldn't be surpised if they forgot 1 or 2 somewhere in the middle of the backwaters being secured by a man killing-ship-exploding crazy AI.

and given the context that Kerensky just dont want his forces used by the noble houses.
it fits.

and yeah the TRO 3075 bit.

I agree with everything you just said, but my point was that Sarna's statement isn't sourced. The only sourcebook that talks about the distribution of Atlas IIs doesn't support the claim that all of them left the Inner Sphere, regardless of that sourcebook's quality. It reads to me like someone extrapolated from "The Atlas II wasn't seen in the Inner Sphere until Tukkayid" and "all the surviving Atlas II pilots left with Kerensky."

yep :P secoundary sources is like that :P
would always go with primary material/source.

/the problems of wikipedia :D

[:WTF: Grendel]

Larry Your Waiter původně napsal:

FearsomeCarrot původně napsal:

It's specifically stated that no Atlas II designs were left behind.


Sarna verbatim states that:
"In 2785, when General Aleksandr Kerensky put out his call for loyal forces to join him in his Exodus, every Atlas II pilot responded and left with him, leaving none of these designs behind. These 'Mechs were prized by the Clans when they were found. One such 'Mech was spotted in 3052 during the Battle of Tukayyid."

So we shouldn't see this 'Mech for like another 25 years.
It goes on to say:

"In the early 3070s, the design was resurrected by the Word of Blake when they captured Hesparus II's factories. After the liberation of Defiance Industries, Devlin Stone's coalition forces kept the 'Mechs in production."

Yes it says that, but if there was an abandoned castle from before the Amaris civil war, which is usually how these Star League tech caches spring about. Then the Atlas in question would have already been rotting in the castle with no pilot when Kerensky said he was going to make his own casino, with blackjack and hookers. Which makes sense because its spinning around in between Taurian concordant and the entire government that was made from the video game, the Aurigan Coalition.

You can't get around an Atlas II possibly being left to rot but you can get around a periphery state springing into the canon out of thin air? I don't understand.

However... the Mech was fielded in 2765, coincidentally the same year the Periphery started a fullscale uprising against the SLDF and Stefan Amaris began seriously plotting out his takeover of the Star League and killing the Cameron bloodline.

So... it states:
"In 2785, when General Aleksandr Kerensky put out his call for loyal forces to join him in his Exodus, every Atlas II pilot responded and left with him, leaving none of these designs behind."

The Atlas II was in service with the SLDF for 20yrs before Kerensky and 80% of the SLDF left on the Exodus. During those 20yrs... any number of the Mechs could have been destroyed and possibly salvaged. Who's to say someone didn't fudge some numbers on a ledger somewhere and a couple managed to be left behind?

[Sword_of_Light]

Lets put this in perspective, because KF-engines give you a false sense of scale. A week to jump point, a week back. Thats nothing - you could sail (under power) from Boston to Miami in that time. Far, but not that far, right?

Keep in mind that "The border between 'the Periphery' and the 'Inner Sphere' is generally 450 - 550 light years away from Terra." This means that the light reaching the Taurian Concordant from Sol in 3025 was emitted when the Reunification War began, in the late 26th century. At best.

Thats an incredible distance, even if it appears short by FTL travel and communication. And the further from the seat of power, the easier secrets are to keep. The real world equivalent is Groom Lake - Area 51. Nevada is ideal for skunkworks, for atomic testing, for things out of sight, out of mind, because its far away from Washington, and isolated from the major population centers along the east and west coasts.

There's nothing to say that Kerenski knew of this particular base's existence - let alone its contents. It could have been built as a bulwark against insurection, a fall-back for civil war - in which case you wouldnt want regional or federal military commanders to know about such a site.

There is also the possibility that when rebellion did rear its ugly head this particular Castle was cut off, and the decision was made to go dark, maybe they lost their HPG station - or lost a crucial link in the HPG network that cut them off. After all, the rebellion was happening right next door.

Or the SLDF garrison decided to go all Fallout Vault and hunker down until orders came in, and ended up eating each other, or whatever horrible fate seemed to befall every single solitary Vault in all the Fallout games.

Or there was no garrison, the place was entirely automated, and designed for use as a fallback position - that never got fallen back to. Maybe Kerenski knew about it, and shrugged - it'd be nice to have those mechs. There's a few stray Atlas II's we'd like to have, but we're headed Coreward, that place is way the hell over at the Rim.

And then Kerenski thinks to himself - well, if I cant have them, next best thing, no one can. I'll use my command access to wipe the records - Star League records now show I have all the Atlas IIs, and I'll tell the system to purge all records of that base existing. So none of these short-sighted power-hungry idiots gets their hands on it.

[XIII]

Belle Sorciere původně napsal:

Petrothian původně napsal:

It really depends on how through and how to the letter one intepret it (the way Sarna word it really just means "All functioning and assigned Atlas II" to me, but considering how big the galaxy is and just how big SLDF is, I wouldn't be surpised if they forgot 1 or 2 somewhere in the middle of the backwaters being secured by a man killing-ship-exploding crazy AI.

and given the context that Kerensky just dont want his forces used by the noble houses.
it fits.

and yeah the TRO 3075 bit.

I agree with everything you just said, but my point was that Sarna's statement isn't sourced. The only sourcebook that talks about the distribution of Atlas IIs doesn't support the claim that all of them left the Inner Sphere, regardless of that sourcebook's quality. It reads to me like someone extrapolated from "The Atlas II wasn't seen in the Inner Sphere until Tukkayid" and "all the surviving Atlas II pilots left with Kerensky."

I don't really get it. Sarna notes "Technical Readout: 3075, p. 184"; do you mean that it either doesn't say that about the Atlas 2, or that those TROs aren't legit canon?

[FemmeDracula]

XIII původně napsal:

Belle Sorciere původně napsal:

I agree with everything you just said, but my point was that Sarna's statement isn't sourced. The only sourcebook that talks about the distribution of Atlas IIs doesn't support the claim that all of them left the Inner Sphere, regardless of that sourcebook's quality. It reads to me like someone extrapolated from "The Atlas II wasn't seen in the Inner Sphere until Tukkayid" and "all the surviving Atlas II pilots left with Kerensky."

I don't really get it. Sarna notes "Technical Readout: 3075, p. 184"; do you mean that it either doesn't say that about the Atlas 2, or that those TROs aren't legit canon?

I mean that it doesn't say that about the Atlas II.

Deployment

The Atlas II was in its frst stages of deployment when the New Vandenburg Revolt sparked off the Periphery uprisings in 2765. Facing formidable odds, these few AS7-D-Hs performed magnifcently. General Kerensky himself piloted one in his escape from New Vandenburg.

With the news that the Terran Hegemony was under Amaris’ control, Kerensky led his troops to secure the lightly defended Rim Worlds Republic as a base of operations. Captured Republican factories were used to produce the Atlas II for Royal commands as they foughtto liberate the Terran Hegemony. While many AS7-D Atlas pilots remained in the Inner Sphere, the surviving AS7-D-H Atlas II pilots chose to follow their Commanding General into exile. The Clans highly prized these Assault ’Mechs whenever they were discovered in Brian Caches during their formative years, and one was sighted in the Jade Falcon Touman during the fighting on Tukayyid in 3052.

While they were in possession of Defance Industries factories on Hesperus II, the Word of Blake produced several runs of the Atlas II for their troops. After the coalition forces evicted the Blakists, Defance chose to keep the Atlas II in production.

This does suggest that Kerensky and his troops had all of the Atlas IIs but it doesn't explicitly rule out the possibility that there could be any in the Inner Sphere after Kerensky left. This is as opposed to the Sarna entry, which as I said, someone extrapolated without sourcing.

[XIII]

Belle Sorciere původně napsal:

XIII původně napsal:

I don't really get it. Sarna notes "Technical Readout: 3075, p. 184"; do you mean that it either doesn't say that about the Atlas 2, or that those TROs aren't legit canon?

I mean that it doesn't say that about the Atlas II.

Deployment

The Atlas II was in its frst stages of deployment when the New Vandenburg Revolt sparked off the Periphery uprisings in 2765. Facing formidable odds, these few AS7-D-Hs performed magnifcently. General Kerensky himself piloted one in his escape from New Vandenburg.

With the news that the Terran Hegemony was under Amaris’ control, Kerensky led his troops to secure the lightly defended Rim Worlds Republic as a base of operations. Captured Republican factories were used to produce the Atlas II for Royal commands as they foughtto liberate the Terran Hegemony. While many AS7-D Atlas pilots remained in the Inner Sphere, the surviving AS7-D-H Atlas II pilots chose to follow their Commanding General into exile. The Clans highly prized these Assault ’Mechs whenever they were discovered in Brian Caches during their formative years, and one was sighted in the Jade Falcon Touman during the fighting on Tukayyid in 3052.

While they were in possession of Defance Industries factories on Hesperus II, the Word of Blake produced several runs of the Atlas II for their troops. After the coalition forces evicted the Blakists, Defance chose to keep the Atlas II in production.

This does suggest that Kerensky and his troops had all of the Atlas IIs but it doesn't explicitly rule out the possibility that there could be any in the Inner Sphere after Kerensky left. This is as opposed to the Sarna entry, which as I said, someone extrapolated without sourcing.

Thanks for clarifying! So in the end, the discussion is kinda moot because the Sarna entry just wasn't correct.

Was neat theorizing how the Atlas 2 could've ended up in that depot, though.

[FemmeDracula]

XIII původně napsal:

Thanks for clarifying! So in the end, the discussion is kinda moot because the Sarna entry just wasn't correct.

Was neat theorizing how the Atlas 2 could've ended up in that depot, though.

It's not an unreasonable extrapolation, to be fair.

And it is pretty neat to theorize.

[Vassago Rain]

Special snowflake original content, donut steal.

They also spent forever hammering home that the game takes place in the no-fun era, only to give their special OC character every piece of lostech out there, and a robot that's not supposed to even be in the inner sphere.

No matter how you slice it, the writing's terrible.

[FemmeDracula]

Nah.

[Shively]

This conversation just seems a bit silly to me given what we know of ComStar's involvement in attempting to protect old SLDF secrets, and being its own contemporary political entity with its own set of goals within the 3025 timeline, and the fact that we know that ComStar pretty much controls all information about the universe and its lore as we know it to this point in the timeline. Just because something is 'canon,' does not mean the original source of that 'canon' is truthful.

All that aside, I don't think it's too far-fetched for one Atlas II or two to go missing during all the chaos of the civil war that led Kerensky to ♥♥♥♥ right off into the cosmos. Just going from contemporary historical examples from Earth here, it's widely been alleged that when the Soviet Union fell, some small nuclear weapons with low-yield ('suitcase nukes') may have gone missing although in nearly 30 years, not a single one has been found and no one has come forth claiming one. However, we do know for a fact that during the collapse of the Soviet Union, weapons scientists and materials from the USSR wound up as far as Pakistan and North Korea.

It just doesn't seem weird to me at all for one BattleMech to have been lost, stored away in this sealed-off Castle Outpost, maybe I should stop reading the lore of a tabletop game in the same way I do real-world historical and political events, but I think we should always keep in mind that someone with an agenda could be twisting the truth slightly in every message we receive. This isn't to say that Obama is turning the frogs gay, but you should definitely closely scrutinize the sources of every bit of information you receive.

Or, you know, the writing could just be bad because it's different from what we were told by some other writer that was pulling everything out of his ass when the original canon was written. We can all have our own opinions here, regardless of how sophisticated they may or may not be. Personally, I'm not gonna question the creation of a game studio helmed by one of the dudes that created the franchise as a whole. Weisman probably knows more about BattleTech than I do, just a hunch. If this is a retcon, it's a really ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ miniscule one compared to what I've seen in other franchises, just sayin'.