possible late game use for a Highlander 732B ? (non DLC game)

[Scathe]

edit - this whole thread was made and talked about during the 1.8 patch's time. 1.9 seems to be giving the highlander 732B 60 base heat sinking instead of 30, huge buff that invalidates alot of the opinions and builds shared here.

so I have an atlas 2 sniper mech that is quite good with 4 large laser+++, 1 AC5++, 1gauss+... I like to have a reserve mech for every role in my main lance though. I'm struggling to find a sniper/spotter mech that can compare to it. I don't have black market access since I'm fully hated by pirates so I don't think I have much chance of getting a second atlas 2.

I have a king crab or an atlas or a highlander 732B that all have about the same free weight, 44 tons on the atlas and king crab at 1680 armor, 45 tons on the highlander at 1640 armor (-20 to both arms, arms are at max) I'm trying for a build that can be an effective sniper / spotter without using too much double heat sinks, so some might not label it as true late game even though I've already beaten the story part. here is an idea I've drawn up, wondering if it should be considered good... they all seem bad compared to my atlas 2.

2 AC5, 2 LL, 2 LRM5 with like 2DHS and 4HS here I am wondering if LRM5 can be considered a decent sniping weapon.. I understand weapons with multiple hits get worse at focusing fire with successive hits, but I heard that LRM were bad at targeting but in the same breath heard that SRM6 was good at it... if LRM5 has 1 less shot than SRM6 it's better right? assuming I got the upgraded versions of all the weapons I think that'd be a 270 dmg alpha, not too terrible but still way behind my atlas 2. LRM5 does have a ++ version with +2dmg right? anyway if I really need to go with more laser and more DHS I don't mind hearing that I shouldn't bother and should use something else better instead.

the other option is to stack more marauders in my mech bay, I have a 3rd and maybe a 4th marauder, but using two of them in the same mission seems bad incase there are alot of vehicles. assuming I only use one marauder per mission I only need 1 main and 1 backup for them. I would still use a heavier sniper alongside the marauder.

[Lucid]

Here's the thing about LRMs. If you mass them, you're generally going for stability knockdowns or playing hide and seek to shred the enemy before they can hit you. If you're using them along with direct fire weapons they can add a bit of utility, but they are going to be kind of situational. missiles can be great for "crit seeking". If your LLAS and AC5s can breach the armor, the LRMs can increase the chances of ammo explosions and destroying weapons. With the current setup you have, that's how I see 2x LRM5s being useful. On their own they are gonna do 40dmg max, and it likely won't all be in the one location.

SRMs are considered good for hit and runs - the idea there is you get in behind an enemy where there is a greater chance to hit the rear CT (or LT/RT) which have minimal armor before going internal. The missile clustering rule (which causes hits to different locations) has less impact there.

I think it's a good idea to have heat efficient backup builds, so I wouldn't suggest dumping the LRMs for lasers if you're thinking of this as an alternate to your Atlas 2. I might consider whether you would want to think about dumping the LLas and upping the LRM rack count to turn the Highlander into more of a low heat/ high stability damage sniper. Large LRM counts can do well at blowing the leg off a mech at long range. They're just not so great if you want to target the head.

[Harukage]

Highlander has jump jets and massive armor. 732b also has superrior heat management by default. So i generaly use it as mobile tank/sniper. I do like its standart allround weapon loadout that goes greatly with how i use it. And it works well enough. Sure it will not have a punch of Atlas II, but it is faster and has better survivability. All Highlanders are generaly really good mechs, that is a reason why 732s are iconic SLDF mechs.
Though it is a concern for DLCs ( i know i know), HGN is also rather light, and is a good choice for missions with limited tonage.

[Scathe]

Originally posted by Fugue:

I think it's a good idea to have heat efficient backup builds, so I wouldn't suggest dumping the LRMs for lasers if you're thinking of this as an alternate to your Atlas 2. I might consider whether you would want to think about dumping the LLas and upping the LRM rack count to turn the Highlander into more of a low heat/ high stability damage sniper. Large LRM counts can do well at blowing the leg off a mech at long range. They're just not so great if you want to target the head.

thanks for the reply. thing is, I also have spare highlander 733 and 733P variants. I have 3 of them in my mech bay already that all have 60LRM and a TTS+ for missile. I usually run my main lance as 1 marauder, 1 atlas 2 and 2 highlander LRM boats. if your suggestion is to run more LRM, then I think my response is I'd rather run a 733 or 733P variant for that. my best highlander LRM boat has a 310 dmg alpha. the idea behind the 732B variant I'm asking about is I'll likely use it for precision shots on center torso or maybe legs. I definately could run 1 marauder and 3 highlander LRM boats, just asking wether that 732B variant is going to be a better precision shot mech than an LRM boat I guess.

Originally posted by Harukage:

Highlander has jump jets and massive armor. 732b also has superrior heat management by default. So i generaly use it as mobile tank/sniper. I do like its standart allround weapon loadout that goes greatly with how i use it. And it works well enough. Sure it will not have a punch of Atlas II, but it is faster and has better survivability. All Highlanders are generaly really good mechs, that is a reason why 732s are iconic SLDF mechs.
Though it is a concern for DLCs ( i know i know), HGN is also rather light, and is a good choice for missions with limited tonage.

thanks for the reply.

[Harukage]

One thing, you might want to max out armor on it. It has more lrm and srm ammo than it needs. So you can adjust here. if that is not enough for you, you might want to replace lrm 20 with lrm 15.
Then you may adjust it weapon loadout if you are not happy with all-range it comes with by default. Repalce srm 6 with lrm 5 if you want long range sniper. Replace Gauss with AC 20, lrm with srm and replace normal medium lasers with pulse mediums if you want close range bruiser.

[Scathe]

Originally posted by Harukage:

One thing, you might want to max out armor on it. It has more lrm and srm ammo than it needs. So you can adjust here. if that is not enough for you, you might want to replace lrm 20 with lrm 15.
Then you may adjust it weapon loadout if you are not happy with all-range it comes with by default. Repalce srm 6 with lrm 5 if you want long range sniper. Replace Gauss with AC 20, lrm with srm and replace normal medium lasers with pulse mediums if you want close range bruiser.

I think I wrote too much in my opening post and you missed the build I'm planning to try with MY highlander 732B. I'm going for 1640 armor, full jump, two AC5, two Large Lasers, two LRM5, two double heat sinks, 4 heat sinks. I know that is less double heat sinks than it comes with for the campaign reward, but I'm looking for a reserve mech with less heat requirements, and one that is still a good long range precision shot option.

[Harukage]

Oh righ... Sorry.
Anyway, if you are going for pure long range, you might want to strip armor from your back, and use tonnage to upgrade your lasers to ER or put more DHS.

Edit:
Other concern is. You prolly need TTS for ballistics if you want to headcap with AC5s. So yeah, cut some armor from your rear.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2001040513
That is a quick refit i was able to do with free parts i had and ballistic TTS.

[Big mean bunny]

If you want like for like then you can loose the jump jets for an extra 6 tons. Lrm 5's are ok for called shots but they dont do much unless you just want to score another pilot hit. It might be better to drop them for better pure sniping ac's or energy weapons. Heat exchangers can work really well if you are short on DH sinks. I would go for star league kit for the atlas II but maybe a couple of AC10 +10's for the highlander they are only slighly less effective than guass pre dlc and still match range with the large lasers.

[Scathe]

Originally posted by Harukage:

Oh righ... Sorry.
Anyway, if you are going for pure long range, you might want to strip armor from your back, and use tonnage to upgrade your lasers to ER or put more DHS.

Edit:
Other concern is. You prolly need TTS for ballistics if you want to headcap with AC5s. So yeah, cut some armor from your rear.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2001040513
That is a quick refit i was able to do with free parts i had and ballistic TTS.

thanks for the reply, interesting take on my idea may look into something like that.

Originally posted by Big mean bunny:

If you want like for like then you can loose the jump jets for an extra 6 tons. Lrm 5's are ok for called shots but they dont do much unless you just want to score another pilot hit. It might be better to drop them for better pure sniping ac's or energy weapons. Heat exchangers can work really well if you are short on DH sinks. I would go for star league kit for the atlas II but maybe a couple of AC10 +10's for the highlander they are only slighly less effective than guass pre dlc and still mach range with the large lasers.

thanks for the reply. I don't think I want to drop the jump jets, not sure. I think dropping the LRMs and trying to upgrade an ac5 to an ac10 might be a good idea though. remind me what planet store filter to look for for heat exchangers?

[Scathe]

Originally posted by Big mean bunny:

If you want like for like ...

didn't catch that at first.. ontop of it's impressive array of weapons my atlas 2 does also have full jump jet, so if the like for like thing was assuming my atlas 2 doesn't have jet.. it does. and still has 1680 armor. it has 7 double heat sinks.

based on what folks are saying and some further experimentation in my mech bay, I'm thinking of trying to hold off on building the backup highlander until I've been to my star league advanced store (magistracy headquarters) again and bought another gauss+(-2 tons) I'm thinking the build to shoot for if I try it is 1480ish armor, full jump, 1 gauss+, 1 AC5++, 2 LL+++, 1 LRM5++, 2 double heat sinks, 1-2 basic heat sinks.

still having a hard time deciding if building that makes sense or if I should just build a 4th LRM boat.

[Big mean bunny]

Manufacturing and black market do exchangers
GL getting the parts. I don't like breaking the theme of jump Highlander but that's not to say I havent done it to squeeze in two rifles.
taking the extra time over it I think you will end up with two very classy mechs rather than an A and B team version. They are both the type I liked to field myself.

[Scathe]

Originally posted by Big mean bunny:

Manufacturing and black market do exchangers
GL getting the parts. I don't like breaking the theme of jump Highlander but that's not to say I havent done it to squeeze in two rifles.
taking the extra time over it I think you will end up with two very classy mechs rather than an A and B team version. They are both the type I liked to field myself.

thanks for the reply, I think I'll go forward with it

[Scathe]

Originally posted by danko9696:

Originally posted by Scathe:

yeah, I've noticed it is pretty much never the best option to leave behind that atlas 2 sniper. I even did a 3.5 skull mission solo with it. high spirit mechwarrior with bulwark and 10/10/10/10 stats, other skills (multishot and coolant vent) irrelevant, was a pretty standard 1v8 battle. keep vigilance up and stay in trees and crush center torsos with precision shot.

edit - my atlas 2 sniper currently has 4 LL+++(+10dmg, +3acc), 1 AC5++ (+10dmg) and 1AC5+ (+5dmg) and has 3 double heat sinks and full jump and 1840 armor and alot of basic heat sinks. my highest priority for new double heat sinks will be getting that mech to 7 double heat sinks. if I get it there I can remove leftover basic heat sinks and remove some armor to put it at 1680 armor and can upgrade it's weaponry to 4 LL+++ 1 AC5++ and 1 gauss+. seems like a new goal that I might play a bit more for. I am almost tempted to take the required DHS off other mechs in my mech bay to try it. (my 2LPL 1LL marauder is the most likely mech to get stripped, it's the only one that could give up all 4 of the DHS)
edit2 - if I did strip my LPL marauder I could consider replacing some of the atlas's LL with LPL...

For me the important part is whether you have or not Rangefinder++/+++ or not. That will make a big difference when playing with LLs, as now the mech becomes self reliant and now can support other mechs (weapon range + JJs) and also spotting (Sensor Lock + Rangefinder++) and do kill jobs alone (weapon range + Rangefinder). If you have it then armor is not so important and 16t armor can be more than enough, so you can add more firepower, like 6xLL++ 2xAC2++/1xAC5++. But that also requires DHS and TEX. Without it you'll be playing with LLs like if they were MLs or as the long range weapons they are but requiring a spotter. And if the Marauder is the only spotter then it's not so good, because now you require Sensor Lock, and that means getting rid of Ace Pilot for Master Tactician.

These are my three main A-II setups I've used the most in the past:
https://i.imgur.com/Vxe9cOk.png
https://i.imgur.com/CgtcyLZ.png
https://i.imgur.com/cQISCDu.png

Although now I'd go with this:
https://i.imgur.com/hAvJeVb.png
or
https://i.imgur.com/fmEQGsd.png

Originally posted by Scathe:

played a bit more, 4ML 2 AC2 marauder... I'm not totally convinced I like it better than the 2LPL 1LL marauder of mine, but I like it enough that the 4 DHS feels too expensive on the 2LPL 1LL marauder right now, at my current overall heat sinking of all the mechs in my mech bay, I'd rather make another marauder that uses less expensive heat sinking and transfer those DHS to my atlas 2. looks like the 2 AC2++, 4ML++ marauder will be my main marauder and I'll try out a new build on my second marauder... 1 AC2, 1LPL, 3ML. If I had a 4th AC2++(+10dmg) then I'd just put two copies of the 2 AC2 4ML marauder in my mech bay. looks like the new marauder build will have 5 basic heat sinks, 1 double heat sink, and 1 more ton of armor than my 2LPL 1LL build had.

Well, the ML variant of the Marauder plays differently from longer range setups and you need to adapt to it, and you may not like it. What I'd do is just keep buying some staple weapons like ML++, ERML++, AC2s, LPL++, ERPPCs... so later you have a good base to experiment with.

those atlas 2 builds danko9696 linked are pretty great, I was focusing on trying to come up with something that doesn't have to give up the gyro and still does well, here is what I have now -

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2001248153

above - atlas 2 with 335dmg alpha, 1680 armor, 72 heat sinking, 85 alpha heat.

and here is something I could try that would give up armor for damage without dropping the gyro -

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2001248090

above - atlas 2 with 360 dmg alpha, 1280 armor, 72 heat sinking, 82 alpha heat. (note, I need a gauss+ with the -2 weight to actually complete this, that is why it is 2 tons over)

wondering if you think I'm on a good track or if the pulse laser build with 390 alpha dmg is still just alot better?

[danko9696]

Originally posted by Scathe:

wondering if you think I'm on a good track or if the pulse laser build with 390 alpha dmg is still just alot better?

I don't think the LPL version is a lot better. Wins by a considerable margin at 0% DR and has an edge for CT core but loses at 20% DR and you don't have the Gyro anymore. I'd say they're on par.

[Big mean bunny]

I tend to use pulse lasers only if i dont have enough laser slots to get the damage out or to reach head shot bars of >30>60 ; other wise normal or er versions are more efficient for me. the best Gauss rifles also take up less crits if that helps but be wary of lowering armour they are volatile.
An atlas or Highlander you might want to think about pulses as the gyro for instance steals some slots. But say a grasshopper has so many laser slots its not worth the pulse tonnage because you will be stealing from other equipment like HS or armour.

[Scathe]

Originally posted by danko9696:

I don't think the LPL version is a lot better. Wins by a considerable margin at 0% DR and has an edge for CT core but loses at 20% DR and you don't have the Gyro anymore. I'd say they're on par.

thanks for the reply, good to hear I'm on a good track.

Originally posted by Big mean bunny:

I tend to use pulse lasers only if i dont have enough laser slots to get the damage out or to reach head shot bars of >30>60 ; other wise normal or er versions are more efficient for me. the best Gauss rifles also take up less crits if that helps but be wary of lowering armour they are volatile.
An atlas or Highlander you might want to think about pulses as the gyro for instance steals some slots. But say a grasshopper has so many laser slots its not worth the pulse tonnage because you will be stealing from other equipment like HS or armour.

thanks for the reply.