Is the Dragon garbage?

[Crim]

I was pretty excited to get a Heavy Mech, and when I went to equip it... I can't see any use for this Mech

It seems to have less usable space than even my Centurion, so its definitely not a gun platform

It looks like its trying to be fast and punch things, but it's like a strictly worse Shadow Hawk
5 melee damage for losing 1 hit defense and 1 initiative?
(and I'm pretty sure it has less tons to work with if you use jumps)

[Wantoomany]

Yes, yes it is.

[MortVent]

It is one of the many big engines/small gun mechs.

Can be turned into a semi-decent close range brawler though till you get better (swapping out the ac/5 for: ac/10 wwith2 tons ammo, srm4/srm6 with 1 ton ammo (usually use the 4 to slot a gyro), and then tweak armor some and maybe add support weapons (small lasers)

[wesnef]

It's an effect of the fact that as engines increase in power, they increase in weight more quickly. Above a rating of around 250-275 (where the rating needed is Mech Weight X Base Movement Speed), they get very heavy, very quickly. Combined with this game's Initiative system, this makes the Dragon and Quickdraw somewhat sub-optimal.

The Shadowhawk/Griffin/Wolverine/etc Medium mechs have a 5 base speed, and 275 rated engines. So they're "fast", but haven't been hit by the engine curve much yet. Whereas the Dragon & Quickdraw are also speed 5, so their engines are 300 rated. Further along the weight curve. And since they're Heavy, they're an initiative speed slower.

Which means that even though they're only 5 tons bigger, they're much worse off than the 55-tonners: they're one phase slower, their jump jets are heavier, and they didn't actually gain much equipment capacity from their +5 tons. So you're honestly better off using a 55-ton "fast" mech, and waiting for a better Heavy.

(Until the 4-speed Rifleman was added in Heavy Metal, they were the only 60-ton mechs. So that whole weight range was a write-off.)



The Banshee is another mech in a similar position - it's a "fast" Assault mech (most are speed 3, most Banshee variants are speed 4), so it's got an absolutely massive engine, and has very little space for gear.

[danko9696]

Is it very bad? yes. Is it garbage? no. It's still usable, not useless.

[crissbow]

Use it if you have got nothing better. The Dragon has it's role as a front line brawler in a pack of medium mechs. It has good armor and when you make good use of its speed the dragon can get pretty nasty, provided that the right pilot is in the cockpit.

[Crim]

Originally posted by wesnef:

It's an effect of the fact that as engines increase in power, they increase in weight more quickly. Above a rating of around 250-275 (where the rating needed is Mech Weight X Base Movement Speed), they get very heavy, very quickly. Combined with this game's Initiative system, this makes the Dragon and Quickdraw somewhat sub-optimal.

The Shadowhawk/Griffin/Wolverine/etc Medium mechs have a 5 base speed, and 275 rated engines. So they're "fast", but haven't been hit by the engine curve much yet. Whereas the Dragon & Quickdraw are also speed 5, so their engines are 300 rated. Further along the weight curve. And since they're Heavy, they're an initiative speed slower.

Which means that even though they're only 5 tons bigger, they're much worse off than the 55-tonners: they're one phase slower, their jump jets are heavier, and they didn't actually gain much equipment capacity from their +5 tons. So you're honestly better off using a 55-ton "fast" mech, and waiting for a better Heavy.

(Until the 4-speed Rifleman was added in Heavy Metal, they were the only 60-ton mechs. So that whole weight range was a write-off.)



The Banshee is another mech in a similar position - it's a "fast" Assault mech (most are speed 3, most Banshee variants are speed 4), so it's got an absolutely massive engine, and has very little space for gear.

I feel like I didn't fully understand this, but did understand the gist of what you're saying.

I also don't have or seen a Banshee so I can't strictly comment on it, but...
It feels like there are a few other mechs like the Assassin or the Vulcan that also has this issue, but at least with the Assassin and Vulcan it has a unique component to give it something unique.

It would be cool if the Dragon had something as well, just a little something extra to make it possibility worth considering.

It's weird in my head that they would add things to the game that are meant to be specifically bad. I can understand niche, but strictly bad seems like bad game design.

With the exception of the Locust, which is okay since there should one at least 1 mech that's really weak for the start of the game.

[wesnef]

Originally posted by Talamare:

It's weird in my head that they would add things to the game that are meant to be specifically bad. I can understand niche, but strictly bad seems like bad game design.

You need to remember that all these mechs & systems are based on the original tabletop game. Which didn't do initiative the same way, did physical attacks differently, etc. And the "average" game of tabletop BT was 4-on-4 with stock mech designs. With those stock mech designs frequently made from the standpoint of "this is what a real military might have come up with in this universe", not min-maxing.

So most designs have odd quirks to them, or strange weapon combos. Especially when taken into this game, which is almost-but-not-quite like tabletop.


As for engines, I tried to find a good pic of the engine chart from the tabletop game's "build your own mech" rules, but the only one I could find was:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/u2eRboy8z5BLOvSdLLc_f4bel9ghV8sC5OcyokwQxj1WIUozLtcf_jUn9QOUZ0xYbTkWg8aEeCHzF15ZMhUvMk-6BWTyq1nv8w-Os1zv4tOWYZrlac-EiHMe

I hope that link works :)

In tabletop, you figured out what Rating your engine needed by taking the mech weight, and multiplying it by how many hexes it could Walk in one turn. It's Run speed was then 1.5x that, and the max Jump Jets it could have was equal to the Walk speed.

So, a Centurion walks 4 hexes and weighs 50 tons = 200 rating engine
A Shadowhawk goes 5, and weighs 55 = 275 rating
An Atlas goes 3, and weighs 100 = 300 rating
etc.


From 10 rating into the mid-100's, engines gain very little weight. This is why Light mechs can go very fast even though they have little available tonnage.

From the mid-100s up to 300, the weight curve starts to go up, so most mid-range mechs go 4 speed, and "fast" Mediums give up weapons & armor to do that.

From 300 to 400, the weight curve becomes crazy. A 300 engine weighs 19 tons, while a 400 is 52.5. O_o

Now, that same 300 engine can make a 60t Dragon go 5 movement, taking a lot of it's weight;
Or make a 75t Orion move 4, leaving a good amount for other stuff;
Or make a 100t Atlas move 3, leaving huge amounts of space for guns & armor.


. . .way too much detail. But I hope it was clearer. :)



(and then, of course, they complicated things with higher-tech engines that weighed less, but had other drawbacks, etc. We don't really deal with that in this game. The few "lostech" mechs we can get access to play fast & loose with the original rules.)

[Crim]

Originally posted by wesnef:

Originally posted by Talamare:

It's weird in my head that they would add things to the game that are meant to be specifically bad. I can understand niche, but strictly bad seems like bad game design.

You need to remember that all these mechs & systems are based on the original tabletop game. Which didn't do initiative the same way, did physical attacks differently, etc. And the "average" game of tabletop BT was 4-on-4 with stock mech designs. With those stock mech designs frequently made from the standpoint of "this is what a real military might have come up with in this universe", not min-maxing.

So most designs have odd quirks to them, or strange weapon combos. Especially when taken into this game, which is almost-but-not-quite like tabletop.


As for engines, I tried to find a good pic of the engine chart from the tabletop game's "build your own mech" rules, but the only one I could find was:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/u2eRboy8z5BLOvSdLLc_f4bel9ghV8sC5OcyokwQxj1WIUozLtcf_jUn9QOUZ0xYbTkWg8aEeCHzF15ZMhUvMk-6BWTyq1nv8w-Os1zv4tOWYZrlac-EiHMe

I hope that link works :)

In tabletop, you figured out what Rating your engine needed by taking the mech weight, and multiplying it by how many hexes it could Walk in one turn. It's Run speed was then 1.5x that, and the max Jump Jets it could have was equal to the Walk speed.

So, a Centurion walks 4 hexes and weighs 50 tons = 200 rating engine
A Shadowhawk goes 5, and weighs 55 = 275 rating
An Atlas goes 3, and weighs 100 = 300 rating
etc.


From 10 rating into the mid-100's, engines gain very little weight. This is why Light mechs can go very fast even though they have little available tonnage.

From the mid-100s up to 300, the weight curve starts to go up, so most mid-range mechs go 4 speed, and "fast" Mediums give up weapons & armor to do that.

From 300 to 400, the weight curve becomes crazy. A 300 engine weighs 19 tons, while a 400 is 52.5. O_o

Now, that same 300 engine can make a 60t Dragon go 5 movement, taking a lot of it's weight;
Or make a 75t Orion move 4, leaving a good amount for other stuff;
Or make a 100t Atlas move 3, leaving huge amounts of space for guns & armor.


. . .way too much detail. But I hope it was clearer. :)



(and then, of course, they complicated things with higher-tech engines that weighed less, but had other drawbacks, etc. We don't really deal with that in this game. The few "lostech" mechs we can get access to play fast & loose with the original rules.)

Ah! That does make sense. Seems like a good system for the tabletop. I can understand that. Which is definitely makes sense that it gives us stricter options.

Tho, the designers of this game took at that system and made it their own in many ways, right?

Its a shame that none of the designers took a 2nd look at a few mechs like the Dragon and just did a little something extra to make them for viable.

It probably wouldn't even be an issue if it wasn't for the Shadow Hawk being so good.

[pete]

Originally posted by Wantoomany:

Yes, yes it is.

Yes, yes he is right. Please add Quickdraw (of any species) to the list of abominations. Rifleman, meh

[Gorok Delvedeep]

Originally posted by Talamare:

I was pretty excited to get a Heavy Mech, and when I went to equip it... I can't see any use for this Mech

It seems to have less usable space than even my Centurion, so its definitely not a gun platform

It looks like its trying to be fast and punch things, but it's like a strictly worse Shadow Hawk
5 melee damage for losing 1 hit defense and 1 initiative?
(and I'm pretty sure it has less tons to work with if you use jumps)

the dragon comes from a time where dracs were the designated evil mcbadguy faction, so their mechs weren't allowed to be great. so the dragon is a heavy mech which loses most of its podspace to a great big honking engine. the basic loadout is also not very good, being an single ac5, and a lrm pack, and a ml or two.

[danko9696]

Ironically the Quickdraw is usually my highest priority in five skull missions, just because it's usually the fastest mech in the opfor side and has JJs too.

[MortVent]

The great dragon refit replaced the original (can kinda build a similiar build with the base, but it's tricky..) mostly replacing the ac/5 with a PPC and a few other tweaks turning it into a slighlty heavier griffin with a pair of medium lasers added and no jump jets.

It was designed to be a trooper/general use mech. Table top gives it better use vs the initiative system here (it still gets the same evasion as any move 5 mech such as the shadowhawk) but one worse initiative phase. Lore wise it was something designed by the government to be cheap, easy to produce and fit the tactics of the DCS, the initial model with the AC was phased out for the Great Dragon with the PPC instead (with many refited in the field, which was fairly easy for a non-omnimech that didn't have pod style systems)

[danger squid]

In general the mechs at the low end of the weight range for their class are worse than the mechs at the high end of the weight range in the previous class, because the slight increase in armor/weapons that you get for weighing an extra 5 tons isn't worth the huge tactical hit of moving to a lower initiative and being easier to hit (mechs are easier to target as they get bigger).

At 60 tons the Dragon is among the lowest weight Heavy mechs, so it has the initiative penalty of a Heavy and is easier to hit, all in exchange for only 5 tons more than a Shadow Hawk; a terrible tradeoff. So, yeah, I would agree that the Dragon is objectively worse than the Shadow Hawk for any use case. If you're going to accept the initiative penalty of a Heavy mech, make the most of it by using something like a 75 ton Black Knight or Orion, which give you significantly more firepower and armor in exchange for accepting an iniative of 2.

Edit: Why oh why didn't they just base the initiative on the mech's movement speed?

[Crim]

Originally posted by danger squid:

In general the mechs at the low end of the weight range for their class are worse than the mechs at the high end of the weight range in the previous class, because the slight increase in armor/weapons that you get for weighing an extra 5 tons isn't worth the huge tactical hit of moving to a lower initiative and being easier to hit (mechs are easier to target as they get bigger).

At 60 tons the Dragon is among the lowest weight Heavy mechs, so it has the initiative penalty of a Heavy and is easier to hit, all in exchange for only 5 tons more than a Shadow Hawk; a terrible tradeoff. So, yeah, I would agree that the Dragon is objectively worse than the Shadow Hawk for any use case. If you're going to accept the initiative penalty of a Heavy mech, make the most of it by using something like a 75 Black Knight or Orion, which give you significantly more firepower and armor in exchange for accepting an iniative of 2.

Edit: Why oh why didn't they just base the initiative on the mech's movement speed?

Initiative based on Engine Size instead of strictly weight would have been really cool

Tho that may just end up with alternative issues

Like the Centurion with its low speed would probably be considered weak since it would likely have much lower initiative

The worst part is that you don't have 5 more tons to play with compared to the Shadow Hawk.
If you did, it probably would be absolutely fine.

You actually only get 1 more Ton to play with, assuming neither use any Jump Jets.
If you both use 5 Jump Jets, you actually have 1.5 LESS Tons than the Shadow Hawk

So, you lose an initiative, you lose a hit defense, and you lose 1.5 tons for...5 melee damage

Both the Flea and the Assassin are in a similar position to the Dragon, that they are the lowest weights in their weight class, but both of them have unique bonuses to make them usable.

[L37]

Originally posted by danko9696:

Ironically the Quickdraw is usually my highest priority in five skull missions, just because it's usually the fastest mech in the opfor side and has JJs too.

I also used it myself when i was able to get it early on.
It can be built into decent ML brawler (and it kind of is one in stock loadout, that's why it is pretty nasty as an enemy) with better armor than mediums and the same speed (so that it can keep up with medium lance).

Dragon... honestly it is not "complete garbage". It can be used in certain circumstances, it is just very mediocre and there is no point in using it once you get better heavies. It always seemed to me that presence of such mechs is intentional - like not every design must be absolutely great, there have to be some mediocre or bad ones too.