does multishot and breaching shot stack?

[Mr Fantastic]

if you attack 3 targets each with an LRM, does breaching shot apply to each of them?

[Zyrrashijn]

yes

[Mr Fantastic]

ok thanks, I was starting to think gunnery skills were super lame, that makes them somewhat more useful.

But tell me whether I'm wrong, but most people go either for termal vents in guts or expert tactician for +1 initiatie or?

[Mudpony]

No, thermal vents is probably the least popular choice. It's okay if you want to alpha a bit more, but long run, it's kinda meh. Most people tend to build their mechs to be able to handle the heat they generate, rather than rely on a pilot skill.

Breaching Shot tends to be popular for pilots used for missile boats or else mechs with a hard hitting weapon (gauss, AC/20). Expert Tactician is all around popular, especially as you get into bigger mechs. And the piloting one is used a lot with jump jets and/or light mechs... fire, then break line of sight.

[wesnef]

Originally posted by Cesar:

But tell me whether I'm wrong, but most people go either for termal vents in guts or expert tactician for +1 initiatie or?

Depends on the player and their preferred strategy. Chessmasters go with Ace Pilot to do the line-of-sight dance and try to never get shot at, for ex. But yeah, that's not "most" players.

Personally, I go 50% Master Tac, 25% Breaching Shot, and 25% (I have to pick either Vent or Ace Pilot, because I took the 1st level skills. /dammit).

[Scathe]

also worth noting that bulwark is the overwhelmingly most popular first level skill, even though it's followup skill, coolant vent, is the least popular. I think it is more important to my strategy to have bulwark on everyone than any other skills matter, but, for example in my second campaign I have 3 multi + bulwark, 1 bulwark + sensor lock, and 1 bulwark + sure footing. I will next work on a second bulwark + sensor lock mechwarrior.

[Mr Fantastic]

Is there any mod for the game that allows skill reset or allocation? I picket multishot with my MC but I don't see any use for it or for breaching shot, bulwark+master tactician seems the best choice overall

[Scathe]

base defense missions are the main use for multishot, and enough of an excuse to also take breaching shot on that mechwarrior. basically, enemies attack, and until you've hit them with an attack, they'll target buildings you need to defend, but once you've hit an enemy with an attack they'll target your mechs. there will be more enemies than you have mechs. some of the story missions are base defense.

[Mr Fantastic]

Originally posted by Scathe:

base defense missions are the main use for multishot, and enough of an excuse to also take breaching shot on that mechwarrior. basically, enemies attack, and until you've hit them with an attack, they'll target buildings you need to defend, but once you've hit an enemy with an attack they'll target your mechs. there will be more enemies than you have mechs. some of the story missions are base defense.

thanks, that's useful to know, wish the ingame tips mentioned that sort of stuff smh

[Mudpony]

Multishot is also handy for when you want to finish off a target that is barely alive (works best with weapons that hit multiple locations so greater chance of hitting the weak spot), while sending fire elsewhere. Very handy against turrets and buildings, since they only have one location.

It's also handy for when you want to hit a target that's at long range, but some of your weapons are out of range... except there's this other target that they can hit.

And, of course, it's handy for taking evasion pips off things. Send a single shot at an evasive target or two, so that your other mechs have a greater chance to hit them, while the bulk of your firepower goes after your main target.

And on top of all that, there's the breaching shot situation. You'll get guys sitting in trees with Bulwark, that's a 40% reduction. If they decided to brace as well, now you're looking at 60%. So in that situation, you might send a single high DPS weapon that target's way, while sending other fire elsewhere.

Multishot is, overall, a very good power. It's a bit like sensor lock... you want at least one guy with it. And personally, I prefer at least two of my guys to have it, which is at least 1 more than sensor lock ;)

As to respecing, the save game editor lets you do that, I believe. And I know there's at least one mod that grants a single respec, but I don't recall the name of it. Potentially one that adds more Argo upgrades (simulator room related).

[danko9696]

Originally posted by Mudpony:

Multishot is also handy for when you want to finish off a target that is barely alive (works best with weapons that hit multiple locations so greater chance of hitting the weak spot), while sending fire elsewhere. Very handy against turrets and buildings, since they only have one location.

So let's say you're attacking two foes, your main target and another who (as you say) is barely alive and has only 10 struct left in the torso. Multi may work against the almost dead one, but your main foe? you're dealing random damage against him.

Originally posted by Mudpony:

It's also handy for when you want to hit a target that's at long range, but some of your weapons are out of range... except there's this other target that they can hit.

Then Precision Shot attack this other one target and secure the kill, and if you have more weapons than needed then don't alpha and keep the mech cool so when you finally attack the other target you PS him.

Originally posted by Mudpony:

And, of course, it's handy for taking evasion pips off things. Send a single shot at an evasive target or two, so that your other mechs have a greater chance to hit them, while the bulk of your firepower goes after your main target.

How many targets are you going to attack in that instance, three?. Instead of focusing damage to drop foes asap you're spreading your firepower.

Originally posted by Mudpony:

And on top of all that, there's the breaching shot situation. You'll get guys sitting in trees with Bulwark, that's a 40% reduction. If they decided to brace as well, now you're looking at 60%. So in that situation, you might send a single high DPS weapon that target's way, while sending other fire elsewhere.

The main problem is that you can't Precision Shot with it, so even against 60% DR is not very useful vs focused damage. LRM boats are the exception because with them, and thanks to indirect fire, you can safely fire turn after turn after turn. You can grind the opfor slowly but at a steady pace, because they do a lot of damage for a very long range weapon, and they're not very good with Precision Shots anyway.

Multi also puts you in a scenario where you attack several foes at the same time, when you should looking for positioning your mechs in order to have local numerical advantage, or at least no disadvantage, and drop individual foes fastest as you can rather than damage several of them at the same time. The sooner you kill some foe the sooner you stop some firepower to be potentially fired at you and also you movement choices expand. IMO usually it is much better to kill four foes one per turn than kill all of them the third turn.

Originally posted by Cesar:

ok thanks, I was starting to think gunnery skills were super lame, that makes them somewhat more useful.

But tell me whether I'm wrong, but most people go either for termal vents in guts or expert tactician for +1 initiatie or?

Master Tactician is very good for assaults, because you attack before other assaults and on the way you get Sensor Lock. That gives you a lot of flexibility because while you approach you can spot for your long range mechs, or when cooling down, and when you fire you get improved initiative. Ace Pilot is not so good for assaults but it is for heavies. Now your heavy can act as a very evasive hit & run assault killer. Coolant Vent is almost irrelevant in the late game when you have access to DHS and lostech mechs. And Breaching Shot is useful only in very niche situations besides LRM boats, and even with them I'd rather take Master Tactician.

[Mudpony]

Originally posted by danko9696:

Originally posted by Mudpony:

Multishot is also handy for when you want to finish off a target that is barely alive (works best with weapons that hit multiple locations so greater chance of hitting the weak spot), while sending fire elsewhere. Very handy against turrets and buildings, since they only have one location.

So let's say you're attacking two foes, your main target and another who (as you say) is barely alive and has only 10 struct left in the torso. Multi may work against the almost dead one, but your main foe? you're dealing random damage against him.

Which is more than 0. And if you're using a big mech, that's a lot of damage still.

Originally posted by Mudpony:

It's also handy for when you want to hit a target that's at long range, but some of your weapons are out of range... except there's this other target that they can hit.

Then Precision Shot attack this other one target and secure the kill, and if you have more weapons than needed then don't alpha and keep the mech cool so when you finally attack the other target you PS him.

Of course, that assumes that you have the morale to precision shot (which you won't, not for all your mechs, especially early on). And that your called shot percentage is high enough that you can secure the kill (which it won't be, early on). And that you're a player who likes to cheese things. That you want to waste time dealing with turrets, rather than just smoking two of them with a single mech this turn. Oh, and also one that has enough knowledge to know that Called Shot is OP late game, but hasn't done anything to make it more balanced.

Originally posted by Mudpony:

And, of course, it's handy for taking evasion pips off things. Send a single shot at an evasive target or two, so that your other mechs have a greater chance to hit them, while the bulk of your firepower goes after your main target.

How many targets are you going to attack in that instance, three?. Instead of focusing damage to drop foes asap you're spreading your firepower.

Except you're not necessarily. By allowing your other mech to hit with more shots, you're increasing your firepower. Now, obviously, later on, when you've got the big nasty mechs, yeah, it's another story. You won't worry much about evasion, between fighting slower mechs, having high gunnery, and can make frequent use of called shots. Heck, for that matter, you don't even need called shot cheese, because you can probably field a bunch of assaults with + gear that pack enough fire power to kill things quickly regardless. But early on, when you can hit something that's standing still hard, and also make it so your other mechs can hit that Firestarter that just jumped for lots of evasion, it's worthwhile sometimes.

Besides, it isn't like the other skills are worth that much by that point either. You don't need four mechs with Bulwark. Two is usually plenty. There is little benefit to more than a single Target Lock. The piloting ones aren't worth that much unless you build around them.

Having a couple of mechs that can shoot at multiple things is handy. It might not be a broken mechanic like Precision Shot, but it still has its uses. Like on the missile boats. And on those missile boats, you can do all the things I mentioned.

Also, I'd get very bored if all I did was cheese Precision Shot every single playthrough. Boring!

[Scathe]

Originally posted by danko9696:

Originally posted by Mudpony:

It's also handy for when you want to hit a target that's at long range, but some of your weapons are out of range... except there's this other target that they can hit.

Then Precision Shot attack this other one target and secure the kill, and if you have more weapons than needed then don't alpha and keep the mech cool so when you finally attack the other target you PS him.

the opening poster of this thread is still in a pretty early stage of the game, where precision shots are rarer because you don't have as much morale yet, and less effective because of low skill mechwarriors. vigilance on your most likely target to be attacked is in my experience, especially if you've got bulwark, a better play than precision shot at the early stages of the game.

also at this early stage, you may still be playing with mechs that haven't been modified yet, and your mechwarriors haven't had minimum range boosts yet. making it more likely that you'd shoot for example your blackjack's 2 AC2 at one target and medium lasers at another target, and if you wanted to be more heat efficient, since the medium lasers are more heat for the same damage, you'd turn some of them off rather than turn the ac2 off.

[danko9696]

Originally posted by Mudpony:

Which is more than 0. And if you're using a big mech, that's a lot of damage still.

That "still more than zero" imo is very often much worse than not firing, because you're wasting heat and probably positional advantage too.

Originally posted by Mudpony:

Of course, that assumes that you have the morale to precision shot (which you won't, not for all your mechs, especially early on). And that your called shot percentage is high enough that you can secure the kill (which it won't be, early on). And that you're a player who likes to cheese things. That you want to waste time dealing with turrets, rather than just smoking two of them with a single mech this turn. Oh, and also one that has enough knowledge to know that Called Shot is OP late game, but hasn't done anything to make it more balanced.

You can't with all your mechs but you can with two, most turns. And you can use good non-PS weapons for your non-PS mechs, if you have a setup like this (like two brawlers + two LRMb), or four PS-mechs and rotate them, so when two of them don't fire they change position, cool or spot.

Do I like to cheese things? sometimes, because I want to relax after playing hard games, but many times I don't. Even with a minmaxed M2R you can't cheese most five skull ambush missions alone, and using a solo GRH also is not exactly a walk in the park when you have only MLs in any type of five skull mission, for example.

And that's the irony, you're telling to a player who would pick even Coolant Vent before Breaching (in most builds), who never would pick Multi alone by itself, that he cheeses, yet you defend the usefulness of Multi+Breaching.

What you say sounds disingenuous to me, because it seems you agree with me but you prefer to tell a different story where Multi is actually good. It feels to me you actually think you need to "balance" your mechs with Multi, nerf them, so you're not cheesing anymore in your view. And that's fine with me, but you should tell about it, the whole story.

Originally posted by Mudpony:

Except you're not necessarily. By allowing your other mech to hit with more shots, you're increasing your firepower.

Like I asked before, in your opinion what is better most of the time, to kill one mech per turn (four mechs total) or not killing any foe until third turn, and then kill all four of them that turn?. Second choice very likely is delivering much higher raw firepower, but is it more effective or safe? I'd say not. You increasing your firepower at the cost of spreading your damage instead of focusing it, securing some kill asap.

Originally posted by Mudpony:

But early on, when you can hit something that's standing still hard, and also make it so your other mechs can hit that Firestarter that just jumped for lots of evasion, it's worthwhile sometimes.

Unless you get a dual AC20 setup very early on it is still better imo to focus damage.

Originally posted by Mudpony:

Besides, it isn't like the other skills are worth that much by that point either. You don't need four mechs with Bulwark. Two is usually plenty. There is little benefit to more than a single Target Lock.

There is a very good point for two Sensor Lock mechs when you have two LRM boats. You have for example two brawlers who can visually spot when attacking or sensor lock when not. And the best part is that what you really want is Master Tactician. Sensor Lock comes as a skill you get as a bonus, a skill which improves your spotting capabilities a LOT, while you can't effectively use multi+breaching with most endgame builds. About Bulwark is not that is needed but that it's always welcomed as passive defense, both for evasive and turtle playstyles.

Originally posted by Mudpony:

Having a couple of mechs that can shoot at multiple things is handy. It might not be a broken mechanic like Precision Shot, but it still has its uses. Like on the missile boats. And on those missile boats, you can do all the things I mentioned.

I already recognized before their usefulness with LRM boats. But besides that I don't see much value in multi besides very situational scenarios. Even if I have that early dual AC20 setup I really don't want to multi but avoid combat until I can PS from a safe/good position expecting to kill the target.

Originally posted by Scathe:

the opening poster of this thread is still in a pretty early stage of the game, where precision shots are rarer because you don't have as much morale yet, and less effective because of low skill mechwarriors. vigilance on your most likely target to be attacked is in my experience, especially if you've got bulwark, a better play than precision shot at the early stages of the game.

also at this early stage, you may still be playing with mechs that haven't been modified yet, and your mechwarriors haven't had minimum range boosts yet. making it more likely that you'd shoot for example your blackjack's 2 AC2 at one target and medium lasers at another target, and if you wanted to be more heat efficient, since the medium lasers are more heat for the same damage, you'd turn some of them off rather than turn the ac2 off.

My counter would be that he's not asking about early game but late game stuff (at the very least mid-late game), asking about high level skills, when he'll definitely have access to high level Precision Shots. And that changes things a LOT, as implied by yourself.

And even then, even early on, as said above, my view is that most of the time you still want to focus fire to try kill one foe at a time, instead of grinding several foes simultaneously. And on top of that you get to choose a different lvl8 skill.

[JC]

Multi shot is highly useful. Finish off mechs, Drop chevrons on multiple mechs, Do full damage with breach shot on 3 different mechs. Full damage to 3 targets with LRM20's or a pair of AC20's is awesome.

Vent is more about the biome, unless your running hot laser builds. I Always have a 4 man team with vent for martian, and desert ect.. I think there are 3 biomes that run really hot.


IMO bulwurk, while it is nice, is really only needed on 1 or two mechs. For example an Ace pilot sensor build can move in, attack, wait for the next turn, attack again and never take damage so bulwurk does nothing a lot.


It is a bit more useful early game when all your pilots suck and don't have much choice for lance set up. I find it far less useful later game. At least not needed on all 4 pilots. I basically put it on brawlers/tanks.. outside of that i take other combos. But like i said, i do have at least 5 vent pilots, my 4 man lance, and then a back-up pilot in case one is down. I also like to have an ace-pilot+bulwurk for my firestarter, or vulcan, the light fast/mobile short ranged mechs.


at any rate, play around.. it's not like getting 15-20 pilots is that hard to see how the different combos work in different mechs.



remember, a well set up lance with Light, medium, heavy, Assault with the proper pilots can run up to a 4.5 star mission. 5 star it can get tough though. But really the common way of thinking is 4 star missions need a heavy/assault lance, but it's not really the case with proper tactics.

[wesnef]

In my last Career, I mostly used Breaching on my Archer. Between the less scatter and +2dmg LRM20's, it wasn't bad. But it wouldn't have been as useful on my other late-game mechs, which just had Vast Piles O' Guns.

(in early Campaign/Career, my multi/breach pilot will usually be assigned to a Centurion-or-equivalent with AC5/2xLL. It can shoot several small targets in the woods, it can clear out half-armored vehicles, and it can tag three targets for Base Defense & Escort missions.)