High damage weapons

[moritzgedig]

Those weapons that cause more damage also use more tonnage and heat per DMG, thus to justify anything else than a medium laser or SRM rack when it comes to dealing damage, there must be a benefit to concentrating the DMG into fewer shots.
I have a hard time finding the benefit.
Shooting from the front there is a 22% chance to hit the CT at least twice or one of the side torsi three times out of 4 hits. That is not great. Using a PPC you cause 100 DMG to CT at best, that is only enough to wreck a 30t Spider 'Mech.
Hitting an arm with an AC20 might rip it off with one shot, there is some value to that if it holds the major armament.
Heavy 'Mechs might be constraint by how many individual weapons they can mount, heat and even space, therefore the heavy weapons must to be used there. But from the standpoint of the individual weapon the only benefit of say a PPC is the range and sensor impairment feature.

[wesnef]

Another thing Big Guns are useful for is vehicles - less armor locations to hit, and can crack like an egg with a good solid shot to anything but the front.

Also, headshotting - with an 18% precision shot chance to the head, it takes a lot less shots with Big Guns to take a head off than with lots of small guns.

And range - if you'd rather not get within ML/SRM range of something, LRMs and Big Guns are useful.


That said, yeah - the balance of power depends on what your goals are & what expansions you have. In the base game, going for Bulk Damage, MLas & SRM are king. With Heavy Metal it changes due to the various OP weapons.


Personally, I don't bother with PPCs - a typical quick modification I do to mechs is to replace the PPC with a LLas. My favored non-HM Big Guns are LLas+dmg & AC5+dmg. And I like to take a mix - a short range firestorm mech with lots of ML/SRM, a long range support with LRM+LLas, and a couple mixed-range mechs with AC5/LLas/ML/SRM.

Even in HM, I still had a fast mech with piles of SRMs for missions where you need a fast striker (Attack & Defend, Target Acquisition). But a large portion of my mechs had UAC2 & 5, and ERLLas.

[Scathe]

In the base game with no DLC, I value LRMs as the top weapons. load up a highlander with 4 LRM15's or 3 LRM20's and you are set. I would prefer 3 mechs with LRM's and 1 mech with SRMs, med lasers, and sensor lock mechwarrior.

the only reason to use non missile heavy mechs is if you have a marauder or maybe an atlas 2 or just the fact that your options are like a centurion or griffin for missiles and a warhammer or heavier for lasers, that much of a weight disparity maybe the lasers are fine.

marauder with like 3 large lasers and an ac/2 is a good headshot sniper.

[wesnef]

I never really got on the Giant LRM Battery bandwagon, and got even further away from it after patch 1.2 or 1.3 (whichever one that made stability attacks weaker). I generally don't bother with LRMs at all in the Light/Medium phase, and once I'm using Heavies & Assaults I'll usually have one support mech with LRMs.

Pre-HM, it was an Orion with 2xLRM15+LLas; upgraded to a Highlander with 2xLRM15 or 20 + some LLas; Post-HM, it was an Archer with 2xLRM20

If I have spare LRM20+dmg racks, I'll stick one on a 100t Assault for variety's sake (and so it can at least toss some indirect damage while it's lumbering into position for it's other guns).

[Mudpony]

Well, part of the problem is using the PPC as the example of the heavy weapon. It's one of the worst weapons in the game, and you're usually better off ripping it out and putting a large laser or AC/5 in its place. To be almost heat neutral, a PPC needs 18 tons. An AC/5 does 5 less damage in exchange for taking 5 fewer tons. A LL lets you trade off 10 damage to save 7 tons. Basically, a PPC is only worth using if you have heat dissipation to burn, have 7 free tons, and want a long range weapon. Well, that or if you use a ton of them, only take on a few enemies at a time, and basically use it for its status effect.

That said, the hard hitting weapons are typically useful for taking out a large chunk of armor, a damage spike at a target location, at which point you can then use lots of lighter hitting weapons to prod the now weak spot, and hopefully crit there. That's why you generally want to set up your mech's weapons so that the high damage, single location hitting weapon is fired before the smaller hitting ones.

[Graygan]

Yep...

1st - PPCs are not very good, DLCs or not... there are far better options. The only time I use PPCs are when I'm very early game and have no choice or when I'm actively restricting myself to make the game more difficult. Swap PPCs out for almost anything. If you want the range, AC5s are great(vanilla, no DLCs). Once you start getting + weapons, you have even greater choices.

2nd - The big damage weapons are good for punching holes. The idea being that you punch a hole, then follow up with small damage weapons like SRMs, LRMs, MGs, SLs, Flamers... looking for the crits.

3rd - The big damage weapons are also wonderful for when you start actively using Precision Shot. I almost never head hunt anymore. It's far more economical to just put everything into the CT. The odds say that even if you miss the precise shot chance to hit that specific location, you will still likely hit the CT.

4th - Try not to shoot at the enemy from the front. Shoot at them from the sides(preferably from a much higher altitude). You have a massively higher chance of taking out a leg or primary weapon if you shoot at the side that has that weapon.

5th - Shooting at the back with a high damage weapons = a higher chance of removing a torso or killing with a single shot.

[moritzgedig]

Strangely I do fear the PPC but do not favor it. Once you are at standard range or if the LOS is obstructed it is dead weight.

It is nice to have a slow lightly armored 'Mech with 2xLRM15 like the Centurion-AL in the background.

[Azunai]

my initial reaction after seeing the numbers was also to pack M lasers and SRMs and ignore everything else. later on i usally also ran with 1 dedicated "LRM boat" in the lance.

after experimenting with other stuff, i mostly moved away from missiles. they look good on paper with that high firepower rating, but in practicse they are kinda disappointing

the only exception i make is for the highly mobile 55 ton mechs - they make great tanks/scouts with a mechwarrior with high pilot skill. hard to hit with 7 or so evasion pips after jumping and if you max out the armor, you don't have the tonnage to support more than maybe a couple of SRM6 and 1-2 M Lasers anyway. if you can consistently use them from flanking or rear positions they can cause some decent damage despite the scattering since there are less zones to hit.

my preferred builds usually revolve around autocannons and large lasers.

for example my Centurion A in my first campaign game was 2 ML + 3 SRM 6. in a recent career i equipped a Centurion A i got with 2 LLs and an AC/5. guess it's mostly down to a matter of preferences, really.

if we count DLC weapons, of course snub PPCs and UAC/5 etc. are overpowered and it's no contest anyway.

[Mudpony]

Well, that depends on the Snub PPC. A regular one, with 35 heat for 75 damage, spread out in 5 15 point hits... not that great. The ++damage version which cranks that damage up by 67% to 125, that's another matter. The 12 range is nice, though.

I think part of what tends to limit SRMs is their to hit is usually not the best. A decent amount of combat is at the 180 to 270 meter range, which translates to a +4 to hit. Furthermore, missile hard points are usually in the torsos, which means no -1 to hit from being arm mounted. And when you're fighting at range, the enemy often moves a lot, so more evasion pips. And then there are MLs, which being lasers, have -1 to hit as well. Hence why do do well with those highly mobile 5/8/5 mechs... the mobility lets them offset that. For slower mechs, you'll probably want to devote a little bit of tonnage to a missile TTS. They can afford it with their tonnage to damage ratio ;)

[TheSiegeTech]

I think there are 2 factors which, taken together, act to marginalize the PPC:

1: It didn't get the same level of buffs when translating from tabletop. In TT, 10 damage, 10 heat, 3 crit spaces, range out to 18 hexes for a stock PPC at 7 tons. Here, you get 50 damage, 35 heat. Medium Lasers follow the same x5 for 1 ton (5 becomes 25, but heat went from 3 to 12, but small lasers get a bigger multiplier (3 becomes 20). Autocannons got a bigger base multiplier for damage up to the AC/20 (AC/2 went from 2 to 25, 5 to 45, 10 to 60), size reduction for the AC/10 and 20 (AC-10 went from 10 crit slots to 3, for example, AC-20 from 12 to 4. To sum up, the devs made autocannons flat better than tabletop, by and large.

2: Precision shot v aimed shots in tabletop. Aimed shots were so much more difficult in tabletop. If you didn't have a targeting computer, your target had to be on the ground, unconscious, or shut down. Targeting computers could NOT target the head, and attempting a called shot added a modifier of +4 (+3 if you had TC) which translates roughly to +45% difficulty to hitting at all.

[pascal.difolco]

Originally posted by moritzgedig:

Strangely I do fear the PPC but do not favor it. Once you are at standard range or if the LOS is obstructed it is dead weight.

It is nice to have a slow lightly armored 'Mech with 2xLRM15 like the Centurion-AL in the background.

Hmm LRM boats need moar LRM, at least 40 in a Centurion, or 50 if you remove JJs.

[danko9696]

Originally posted by wesnef:

Another thing Big Guns are useful for is vehicles - less armor locations to hit, and can crack like an egg with a good solid shot to anything but the front.

Once you get enough firepower big guns are worse than many smaller ones, because the less hit locations make those smaller weapons inherently more focused without Precision Shot. That's why LRM boats are so good against vehicles. The caveat would be with HM and the inclusion of UACs, which while still less efficient than the more efficient ML or SRM weapons they need less hardpoints.

Originally posted by wesnef:

Also, headshotting - with an 18% precision shot chance to the head, it takes a lot less shots with Big Guns to take a head off than with lots of small guns.

You also get a lot more chances for dealing no damage at all, while with many weapons it is much more predictable if you weren't successful the first salvo.

Originally posted by wesnef:

I never really got on the Giant LRM Battery bandwagon, and got even further away from it after patch 1.2 or 1.3 (whichever one that made stability attacks weaker). I generally don't bother with LRMs at all in the Light/Medium phase, and once I'm using Heavies & Assaults I'll usually have one support mech with LRMs.

I find LRM stability far better early on, because you don't have high level PS for your direct damage weapons, and without it LRMs are not surpassed by any other weapon in vanilla for long range. And you can fire them turn after turn. And later on you can ditch the stability part, go full +dmg and make them persistent damage dealers (not for knockdowns). But you need some DPS critical mass for that. That's why imo mixing them with other weapons is not a good idea for minmaxing.

Originally posted by Graygan:

2nd - The big damage weapons are good for punching holes. The idea being that you punch a hole, then follow up with small damage weapons like SRMs, LRMs, MGs, SLs, Flamers... looking for the crits.

Late game small weapons, focused by Precision Shot, are better at punching holes than big weapons. It's just that those are not pinpoint holes but really big ones.

Originally posted by Graygan:

3rd - The big damage weapons are also wonderful for when you start actively using Precision Shot. I almost never head hunt anymore. It's far more economical to just put everything into the CT. The odds say that even if you miss the precise shot chance to hit that specific location, you will still likely hit the CT.

Smaller weapons benefit a LOT more than big weapons from PS, cause big guns only get the aim part while the multi smaller weapon setup get's also that and they get focused to a high degree.

Originally posted by Graygan:

4th - Try not to shoot at the enemy from the front. Shoot at them from the sides(preferably from a much higher altitude). You have a massively higher chance of taking out a leg or primary weapon if you shoot at the side that has that weapon.

Also disagree. Attacking from the front is much better if you have enough firepower to back it up. It's faster (no need to manoeuvre beforehand) and keeps the back of your attacking mech facing your other mechs.

Originally posted by Graygan:

5th - Shooting at the back with a high damage weapons = a higher chance of removing a torso or killing with a single shot.

As we've discussed in other thread my position is that it is far riskier. Against that you argued that was not a problem for you because you have memorized all the maps. But if the reinforcement drops were dynamic, random, would you risk being potentially open to some yet unseen mechs or surprise reinforcements?.

[Graygan]

Originally posted by danko9696:

Lotsa stuff... snipped for size

I have zero arguments with anything you've said. Except for one.

I don't know about the others, but I was specifically talking about the weapons without Precise Shot. Specifically because the OP didn't mention PS.

Precise Shot changes pretty much everything. Mech choice, weapon choice, target choice.

When I allow myself to use the morale abilities, I will usually have 1 dedicated PS mech... (Marauder for Head-Hunting or Annihilator for CT hunting). The weapons loadout will be different, based upon what I am able to find/buy and damage potential, as well as the range in which I need to be for max damage potential.

I will also usually have a scout type mech that will be a second PS mech assuming I have a pilot with High Spirits so I can do PS twice a round. For scout mechs I've very recently found myself becoming a fan of the Banshees. The M version for fast and jumpy with 6 SPL++ doing 270 damage to the rear CT... and when I'm not shooting in the back, I'm doing 200+ physicals with 270 damage just in case the physical wasn't enough. The other is the S version... all those energy slots makes for massive mid-range damage as well as insane rear CT shots, but far less in the way of physical damage ability.

Again, this all assumes the use of Precise Shot. Without Precise Shot, the decision tree for weapons loadouts depend a lot more on your playstyle.

Originally posted by danko9696:

As we've discussed in other thread my position is that it is far riskier. Against that you argued that was not a problem for you because you have memorized all the maps. But if the reinforcement drops were dynamic, random, would you risk being potentially open to some yet unseen mechs or surprise reinforcements?.

Yeah... sorry about not responding. I had to go on a last minute business trip and I don't hit up discussion boards when I'm on my trips. I need to focus on work. I got back late last night.

You are correct, though. If reinforcement drops were dynamic and random, I would play somewhat differently. It would be a situational decision though. Sometimes I would expose my scouts back to potential reinforcements dropping. Especially if I could jump it in for max evasion and into cover.

Keeping in mind, that when my scout is angling for back shots, I'm pretty much at the mopping up stage of the battle.

If reinforcements were dynamic, random, and came from unknown directions at random ranges, I would change a lot of things. To start with, I'd put in a bit more ammunition on my ammo dependent mechs. I'd increase my rear armor(not to max, but more than the 15-25 I keep it at now). Then I would change how I moved my mechs as a unit. At the end of the battle, I'd continue to keep them closer together for support instead of letting them spread out a bit to kill the last 2 or 3 enemies and end the battle.

If I had to assume that until I actually got to the evac point, I had to watch out for reinforcements, that would change how I moved as well.

But... That would entail a huge change in the way the game is currently set up. There'd be no more automatic evacuations. There'd be the possibility of facing literally companies instead of just lances of enemies. We'd likely need larger maps with evac points that were more random as well. This, of course, brings us into the realm of what we wish to happen with the game instead of what is.

I would love to see those changes. I'd like to play with the worry of still getting jumped by reinforcements while I try to run my evil merc rear-end to the evac point. I'd like to play on larger maps so we could make proper use of maneuver and long-range firepower with scouting playing a better role. I'd like all that and more. I don't think it's likely to happen any time soon, though.

[Big mean bunny]

Assassin, large coil gun, breaching shot = more fun than stuffing it full off best damage to heat/ tonnage ratio weapons.

[moritzgedig]

Originally posted by Mudpony:

what tends to limit SRMs is their to hit is usually not the best. Furthermore, missile hard points are usually in the torsos, which means no -1 to hit from being arm mounted. And when you're fighting at range, the enemy often moves a lot, so more evasion pips. And then there are MLs, which being lasers, have -1 to hit as well.

A bit off topic but an interesting observation.

[moritzgedig]

So we agree that high damage weapons are only goodfor vehicles or if shot into a non front hit arc or at light 'Mechs that moved too little?

I agree that LRM are shockingly good on paper. Maybe I just never used enough of them at once to see it.